Stage 1 "TRACK ELIMINATOR" heads

You bet it is... add 370 lbs to your car, take out the 4.30 gear you have and put a 4.10 in it, and you will see exactly why that car has a 3 speed in it.

Nope.... other than the fact it is heavier than a glide.. car needs a slightly different combo. And I don't worry to much over MPH.. drag races are measured in time, not speed, trap speed is more of a 'bragging rights" thing than anything. When we do make the change, I am going to be looking for ET reduction, MPH change will be more of a "oh... that's cool" thing than anything else.

You would not want a glide in this car..

... here is the problem with the dream wheel numbers, for figuring HP.

15 MPH tailwind... did the car just pick up 40 HP?

And where does it make the power? That's critical, in setting up your shift points, converter stall, gear selection, tire selection ect..

Where do you think your motor makes the peaks?

Between $400 and $600 ... pennies, when you compare that to what one of these engines cost.

Ah yes.. the "monkey see, monkey do" approach to tuning. That is what we call it around here.. and yes, I do factor in what other guys are doing, but the bottom line is what this engine wants.. not what Doug's did..

Th numbers you just quoted for timing are not the numbers in the 525 I had on the dyno. And not the numbers in several 462 race motors, that were in my old Regal.

Every motor wants something a little different, and you have to factor out variables.. even in something as simple as the timing light being used.

Would it have run with 32-35* timing.. sure.. but not it's best.

And we tried various carbs.. 1050, 1150, and 1250 Dommies.. it like the 1250 best, but we had to change the boosters in it, to a custom configuration.. oddly enough, after that mod, the carb wanted a 5 number stagger between the front and rear jet size. We feel this is because of subtle differences in the modified boosters we put in this carb.

All we had to do, to balance the carb, is look at the pounds per hour of fuel, used by the front of the carb, and match that to the rear, to equal them out... and you can only do that on a dyno. In our case, the front was way rich..

Now, if we skipped the dyno, and tried to do this at the track, then how long do you think (if ever) it would have been before I tried dropping the front jetting 5 numbers?

I can tell you what would have happened.. we would have put the 1250 on the shelf, saying "that carb does not work" and would have went back to an 1150..

And we would have been correct.. the way it was jetted, it did not work.. nothing wrong with the carb, it just wants something different in it, jet-wise. The 1250 out powered all other dominators, once we got it right. But it's far from an "out of the box" deal.

Here is what I know about that engine, from it's dyno session.

The carb issues we discussed.

I know exactly what the vacuum pump is worth in HP, and how much it cost me in oil pressure.... at 4 different vacuum levels.

I know exactly what the extra 1" spacer is worth, how that changed the jetting and timing requirements and that it was worthwhile to rebuild the entire hood/air pan arrangement to be able to use it.

I know exactly what the oil pressure is at a given rpm, and how adjustments to the external pump affect those pressures.

I know exactly what different weight oils do to oil pressure, and power output, and have selected the exact correct oil, that gives us the best balance between those factors... IN conjunction with the vacuum pump!

That little deal alone, is worth the entire cost of the dyno session.

And a multitude of other things were learned.


Not to mention, exactly what the motor made in HP and Torque, and exactly the tune up required to get it there.. now we know where to go, to duplicate that tune up at tracks with different ambient conditions.

We are not guessing..

And yes, starting conservatively fat on the carb, we picked up 62 HP in the last session.. safely..

How do I put this delicately....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have that motor spread out all over your shop again, due to the fact it sustained bearing failure in 2 passes..

And your contemplating too high a DCR as the cause.

AS far as I am concerned, that's number 313 on the list of possible causes.. and I would be willing to bet, that you will find your answers in the first 312 possibilities. Only if the motor detonated and the carb tuning was right on, would this be something I looked at. Beyond oiling and bearing issues, only detonation will make a rod bearing fail.

Here is why... you need to make that engine live, in a static environment first... and then put it in the dynamic environment of the race car.

Why?... because then you can determine if something in the dynamic environment is a factor in the failure... now, if it lives thru the dyno session, then you can rule out a number of factors, in your failure, and focus on "what happens when this thing is in the car, that is not happening when it is sitting on the dyno. And then you will be lead to your answers. Or at least have more data, to analyze the situation.

John, I would hate to see you spend the better part of next season, working out the current issues. When you more than likely can work them out over the winter, on a dyno. It may take more than 1 session.

How many did George's motor have?

7..... :eek2:

Partially because I will be the first to admit, there was a "learning curve" in building this first 800 HP motor. Only 3 sessions were stopped because of failures, all three of those times were bearing failures.. the motor suddenly lost 30 HP.. that does not happen, without something going on inside the motor.

We tweaked a 494 crank's #7-8 rod journal once, causing the crank to flex, taking out number 4 main bearing. -- We went to the billet crank, to eliminate this.. this was at the 760 HP level. Now, we have a buddy in town that has a 494, that makes 799 HP.. and his is living... what does that prove?... everything is different, even two "identical motors" have differences.

The first version of the 494 made 745 HP.. and we wanted more.. so we took it all apart again, to make more.. more cam, more compression.. that lead to the crank issue.

We heated up rod bearings, not to the point of failure, but certainly there were indications of this happening at some point.. on went the external oil pump, and modifications were made internally.

This situation happened again, once we reached the 780 HP level.. so more mods were preformed.

And so on and so forth...


So, the next time I build one of these motors, I know exactly what recipe has to be followed, to make it perform this way, and live..

That was an expensive learning session.. my customer paid for the parts that were in the motor when it was finished, and only the last dyno session.

I paid for everything else. :eek2:

Now, one of the real issues I am finding out, with various folks reporting their experience on different dynos, is that the operator is very important. I'm lucky, to have a great operator, one of the most experienced independent guys in the business.

I think Ketchum has a dyno, and I would advise you to go see those boys, to dyno your motor, over just any old shop.

Or bring it up here, I will put TSP's shop at your full disposal, to work out any issues, and we will go visit Ron... hopefully only once..

But whatever you do, good luck, hope to see you and Stan at the track next spring!

JW

 

Speaking of prices and heads I have a few questions regarding them. The first is that the Stage 2 SE heads are $2250 complete while Stage 1 SE heads are $2400-$2500 complete. Are Stage 2 heads not better than Stage 1 heads? If not then what is the performance difference? Also if I purchased Stage 2 heads would I need a Stage 2 cam, headers, and intake manifold? Can TE heads be used on the street?

 

Rick,

You are so right when you say these internet forums can be used as a tool also. There is soooooo much great information that can be taken from everyones experiences. That is why I asked the question about the use of a dyno. OH.. and GO DOUG!!!


As I was outside today working around the house I was thinking. Well.... if I had a beautiful car (that didn't have a removable front end like mine does) then it would be much more than a 3 hr job to put an engine in.

Time and Aggrivation.... Those are two very good points. As my boys age I find there is less time to wrench. I am lucky dad helps in these areas.

Your points are well taken!!! And will factor into my decision to put my engine on the dyno this winter.

Thanks

 

Jim,


Thanks for the opinions and offer for the use of the dyno. I am sure the bearing issues we had with the new engine were from too much cranking compression. With the 270 @ .050 cam the cranking compression was 270 psi. We knew there were problems with this engine before we took it to cecil. You can ask anyone who was there. I told them well in advance. But thats OK.... we accomplished what we went there for and that was an 8 second pass. This winter we will be correcting all issues and get back to racing.

You said a typical day on the dyno costs $400 to $600 bucks. Does this include a person there to help with the dyno? Before you go to a dyno doe you kind of make a game plan on the things you wish to try?

Lets keep this positive... Please.

Thanks

 

Just heard from John Csordas on the Nextel, unfortunately Doug ran.....yep another 9.02. I'm sure he'll be on to explain things. Heard the track conditions were not the greatest, though I wasn't there and he can explain things better.

As with the dyno time. John, my goal is to play with the dyno this winter set the car up and make maybe 2-3 trips to the track early next year. By the time Norwalk rolls around I want things to be in perfect running conditions. With all you heavy hitters out there I would prefer to worry about my lights then to worry about "if the car is running right". Us eastern guys need to get even with you guys for cleaning us out at Cecil 2 years straight:moonu::laugh:

Rick

 

John,

I did not mean to come across negative at all... just to make my points clearly. I hope you (or any other reader) did not take it as any kind of a bash.. not meant that way at all.

Yes, Ron runs the dyno session, does all the setup and teardown. He is quick, and has everything we will need. He has dynoed at least a dozen BBB this year. We would help put the headers and carb on, and then we all would be working on the motor.

Yes, bring anything you want to test. He has a full compliment of carbs, from Q-jets to 1250 dominators, and spacers too..

What I would suggest if your serious about coming on up, is that you leave on a Friday after work, get up here by Saturday afternoon. We then could set your motor up on the run stand in the shop, start it up, and break it in. Sunday, we could pull the pan, inspect some rod bearings, and get ready to go to the dyno shop Monday morning.

On the dyno, I have changed cams before, so that is a very possible thing to do, if you have a couple grinds you can try them both.. and of course, get a good tuneup, and test spacers, timing settings and that stuff. He has an MSD 7AL3 on the dyno, so I suppose it would even be possible to try some different timing stuff, with a higher base setup, and work with some retards.

AS far as the DCR goes.. never even did a static test on the 525 here, but I can tell you, with the plugs in it, and an 18" bar on the front, I can litterally hang off the bar, when a cylinder comes up to compression.. we have to let it dissapate past the rings for a couple seconds, before we can turn it over..

So it has plenty of cranking compression. That motor has a 274/278* duration cam in it, on a 108 LC.

JW

 

Jim
As I read your post,I thought your points were well made and I also trust they were well taken.

 

I see my name dragging thru the mud here so I thought I would post. My thought about the dyno is that I needed to know some things like " best timing for the best HP" "whats the power band of the motor" I could go on but you get the picture. I was planning a trip to the rear wheel dyno too to see if Im loosing tons thru the car too. All these numbers are for reference et slips do tell all , sorta...........................

I dont have the advantage of someone to work the suspension over at every race to get it just right for me, I DO IT. I dont have the experience in tuning a large motor like others do, I STILL DO IT. AS I have gone along I beleive I have done well with little to NO instructions from anyone in particular , I have to take tidbits from people like JW or Mike T over the phone trying to describe the problem as well as I can. Its no secret that JH went faster, but what are we talking about here 999 vs 1018 not that far out there. These are baby numbers!! Just very tough ones to reel in by yourself.

I really thought I should be in the 9s right out of the box but I have learned that its easier said than done. I was doing the math on maybe trading out converters on this combo to try and pick off some 60 foot time. The car runs great and as soon as I got into some air under 3500 feet the car was lean and started running funny and dropping the MPH !!???!##@@@!!! WHAT NOW!! ALL of the racing Ive done has been at no less than 3500 feet of air and once again soon as I got into good air I didnt have the experience to know exactly what to do.

Runem
since I dont know who you are you need to come and see the car run once you may get a good laugh at me sliding all over the track. Better yet check this out here http://www.mrbuick.com/photos.htm and click on the tach and watch the 1018 run You may have to reconcider your comments about my car not makin HP ou:

 

Mike,


This is where the Moroso slide rule does come in handy. Just so you dont go crazy thinking your a couple of tenths off of your goal. Below is what the slide rule says.....


4000 lbs @ 10.18 = 690 rear wheel HP.

OK..... your car is HEAVY!!! so we will at 18% to the rear wheel HP.

690 + 18% = 814.2

To me it would seem that your pretty darn close. If you could get that car at a track near sea level it would get that 9.99!!


So.... if we look at all of these large engines.

Doug's
George (JWs)
Mike G
John Z.
Gary K

They all seem to make anywhere from 800 to 825 on the "Dream Wheel". Kind of interesting!!!!!


Dont give up Mike.... you will get to your goal.

Take Care

 

when I had that 535, I figured it made about 818 hp in a 3810# car, and it went 9.90@135.95

I had the fattest car in GSP by 300#

that T/A motor was just nothing short of awesome

the WHOLE secret to my GSP fat ass combo was the A-1 convertor that Dave Benisek talked me into. John Gentner has that convertor now. and NO he won't sell it.

J

 

I feel, even though I was racing when this thread caught fire, I must throw my 2 cents in. The Moroso slide rule that I've had since '88 is dead on. You just have to realize that each car is going to lose a different amount of Hp through the drivline. If you run a Lenco trans you can lose virtually NOTHING! Sometimes you can run MORE mph than the slide rule says you have a right to. Scotty Guadagno proved this on the dyno as well as at the track. The rest of us running automatics have to live with the fact that they are by nature, inefficient. The trick is to minimize that fact. Start with a convertor that's tight enough, but not too tight. That's several days worth of track testing in itself. The dyno rule of thumb that I've always used is this: You WILL lose 50 to 60 hp from the dyno to the rear wheels with a powerglide. With a three speed it's closer to 75 hp. (sorry Jim, that's a fact). I've seen guys with the wrong trans/convertor combo lose over a hundred hp! If you're only losing 40 hp with a 'glide or 60 hp with a T-400, you're ahead of the game. Using my car as an example....I just checked my numbers on the slide rule and I came up with 780 rear wheel hp. That's 50 hp less than the 830 it had on the dyno. I'd have to say I'm pretty darn happy with that. I'd say my combo is very efficient. The MPH matches up perfectly with the ET. The slide rule matches 9.0 with 150 mph and that's exactly what I run. If your car deviates (ET doesn't match mph) , then you've got an efficiency problem.
Also, I find myself agreeing with Rick ou: the dyno is a very valuable tool for setting up your combination. i.e.- gears and convertor stall. It's not just how much Tq and HP you make, it's when do you make the most of each. And speaking from the experience of a guy who has lost motors both on the dyno AND in the car...I'll take the dyno explosion ANY DAY! No sliding sideways in your own oil! :af: Plus, I'd rather drive home from the shop all depressed after a dyno blow up than tow the car all the way back from Bowling Green with a blown motor any day! That's a long enough trip without the black cloud along for the ride. Trust me!
As regards the ETs at Atco...I'm pretty sure that the 9.02 and 9.03 that I ran in the freakish, 83 degree weather will be solid 8.90s as soon as I replace the two valves that I bent last month and get back to the track in some crisp, cold air.
John, Best of luck getting it back together and getting back out there! :TU:

 

Doug,

I think you have brought up the best reason thus far for me to spend the money to put my engine on the dyno. That reason being OIL UNDER THE REAR TIRES!. I know that we are all pushing the strength of these blocks therefore I will have an engine diaper on mine for next year. By the way... I made some calls and it will cost me $650 for a day of dyno plus a vacation day to boot. Micheal's Racing Engines is about 20 minutes away and they have dynoed Paul Pirnat's engines over the last few years.

 

I hope my experiences help. I don't want ANYONE, especially someone I consider a friend, to come as close as I have to putting the car on the roof. Scotty has flipped on three separate occasions, twice since I've known him, and he's lucky to still be here. I don't take that lightly. I'm just glad that I'm an EXCELLANT DRIVER!! :laugh: Take it easy and good luck.

PS - I got the head off up at Stage1 Auto tonight and it doesn't look like anything serious. Scotty said to bring it down to him on Friday and he'll fix it right away and I can take it back with me.:TU: If that works out, I'll bring the car back to Stage1 on Saturday to put the head back on and just maybe I'll be back to the track on Sunday. That would be COOL!

 

Doug,
Good Luck, I hear John Csordas and some others are going to E-town on the 23rd of Nov. for some test and tune.Will you be there also?? I was planning on going,not to race but to photograph everyone.
It would sure be nice to get the first picture of you doing a 8 sec. run!!:TU:

 

I agree but it would be equally as nice if you were to post that picture on the board as well.