Dear V-8 Buick tranny experts, I'm been unhappy with my choices for a lock-up torque converter control for the 200-4R tranny that has finally been installed into my trusty 1965 Buick Special wagon. No single after-market kit does what I want and so my "automatic" transmission would become more of a manual when it comes to controlling lock-up. I've been puzzling over a comment by Doug Gorton on a thread I started comparing the TCI and B&M kits. He writes: I wondered if this was actually practical or not. Having a background in "IT" I can't help but think about this problem in terms of programming logic. This is the logic I would want to have controlling the lock-up solenoid: Well, the digital logic of "AND" can be accomplished by putting a set of switches in series. Unless all the switches are on, power doesn't reach the other end of the line. Doug has gotten the TCI and B&M system reversed as far as function, but basically that suggests to me hooking each system in series should give me this sort of control. Here is a rough diagram showing what I'm thinking about: This means combining a brake switch like the one Sean G. recommended for me: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/pa...t-Switch/_/N-9cias?itemIdentifier=116525_0_0_ Then add The B&M kit to provide the sensor connected to the speedometer. That is what allows you to set a minimum speed for the lock-up and it also provides a convenient manual disable switch as well: http://bmracing.com/?wpsc-product=c...rans-wlockup-converter-mechanical-speedometer Finally once the car is running at highway speeds, use the TCI kit to provide a vacuum sensor for gauging engine operation: http://www.tciauto.com/tc/200-4r-700-r4-lock-up-wiring-kit.html The final piece of the puzzle I found with a little internet searching. A company called Wolsten Tech makes custom relays with built-in time delays. http://www.wolstentech.com/products/timedelayrelay/timedelayrelay.php If you put one of these relays at the end of the string of switches, then the lock-up converter won't be engaged for the delay time built into the relay. I think this is a good idea to avoid situations where you are forced to brake and then accelerate slightly to cope with a congested freeway. That could cause the lock-up solenoid to jerk back and forth over a space of seconds. Now as Doug concludes: However, just because it would be cool if it worked . . . doesn't mean it is a good idea. Therefore I ask the V-8 Buick tranny experts: Will this actually work? (Have I overlooked something and it isn't practical at all.) Does it seem plausible that will provide a reasonably automatic control of the lock-up torque converter? (except in special cases like say towing.) Will is provide enough of an improvement to be worth the effort? Would you'all be interested in seeing such a system attempted for sake of public knowledge? What do you'all think - opinions solicited!! :Smarty: Cheers, Edouard :beer
I would be interested in a solution for automatic lock-up control. I have a 700r ready to replace a th350 soon.
The more complex your controller setup is, the more likely it is to piss you off at one point or another. I have run the TCI setup for 5-6 years with no complaints. All I have is a switch to deactivate all lock-up which I never use. It came with a vacuum switch which I disconnected a long time ago. It simply was not needed. Once I hit 3rd lock-up engages and remains locked through 4th. For some reason my 2004r does not lock up in 2nd, which I prefer because that can be a little harsh. One thing I've wondered about is the actual necessity of the brake pedal switch. I would be willing to bet that no one has managed to stall their engine by locking up the brakes.
I was driving down the highway at about 70MPH and then some traffic up ahead of me stopped quickly for some reason... I had to slam on my brakes and the engine stalled which meant I had no power steering or brakes.... I was able to get the truck started and then stop just in time but it was a close call... I installed the brake switch that night.... This was with a fuel injected engine as well so it was not the carb dying as I slammed the brakes on.
I would be interested in simplifying your solution. I just did a trans controller for Sean in addition to building my own. Sean's doesn't have the delay TCC (torque converter clutch) routine mine has, but I' ve been meaning to finalize the "automatic" portion of the logic. Presently I have a 3 sec delay routine that detects whether 3rd or 4th is engaged to allow the TCC to engage.
As a former programmer myself, I see the logic you desire and have had similar thoughts. I've pretty much decided to simplify it by doing away with the B&M portion and just stick with the current properly adjusted TCI and the brake switch for now. The delay timer is still in my head. I wonder if Bruce Roe could concoct something similar to his switchpitch devices to function as a lockup controller? Very similar intents and very similar end results. I also looked at an RPM activated window switch that turn on a selectable RPM and turn off at another selectable RPM so I'd set it to lock at 2500 RPM and unlock at 1800 RPM. I haven't thought this through yet so it is still just an idea. http://www.amazon.com/Programmable-Digital-Activated-Window-Intellitronix/dp/B0098PCMJU I've considered getting a Raspberry Pi and seeing what I can concoct with it and a few sensors but was afraid it would get out of hand, requiring a throttle position sensor, rpm input and water temp sensor along with a vacuum sensor. BTW, don't skip the brake switch. It is for safety. It is like stabbing the brakes with a stick car if you don't.
Edouard, Send Chad here in the above quote a PM about what he is talking about. Chad built me an awesome controller for my trans, he knows his stuff! I know he could design, build, and ship you a really nice setup if you discuss it with him.... My kit came complete with detailed instructions, I am very pleased. ---------- Post added at 04:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 AM ---------- You should also chat with Chad about options for the lockup control, I am sure between the two of you some great ideas could be combined... This morning I jumper wired my lockup on my truck so it was always in the locked position, got up to 45 MPH and then slammed on the brakes and the engine stalled... Driving without the brake switch is dangerous... I just wanted to confirm this and let everyone know to use the switch.....
Looks really feasable to me. (Re: Ultimate lock-up torque converter controller) Dear Cason, Sean, Chad, Greg, and V-8 Buick tranny tinkerers, I put a little more time reviewing the electrical issues associated with putting together a system like this and even my cobbler solution seems viable and robust enough. Well, I think it depends on what you mean by "complex" and what your style of driving is. The goal for my trusty wagon is to be a mellow cruiser. Ironically if Buick produced wagons like this (at a price people could afford) perhaps the stigma against station wagons never would have happened!! :3gears: Still, I would like the car to be something my Mom could still drive is her vision permitted it. So I want automatic controls and will be will to sacrifice a little performance for that. However, one thing I am worried a bit about is being too conservative and not locking up converter as much as it should be. That would hurt the fuel-economy goal that is a big part of this project. It would certainly be nice to be able to "tune" this controller a bit. Which leads nicely to . . . . PM sent! Actually in my case I think the danger is even more extreme. Let us all not forget, . . . . . . . . 540 foot-pounds of torque. Biquette's assertive JW masterpiece engine is very likely to break something in a condition like that. At least in my case the brake release switch was an absolute no-brainer. Any additional thoughts? Does anybody have some ideas about what the logic for controlling the lock-up converter that would be "more-better" than I've suggested? Thanks again everybody!! :TU: Cheers, Edouard :beer
I don't have a more better solution, but when I had a 700 (4R) in my Skylark, I used the TCI controller and the brake switch. I realize you have a 200 R4; I'm curious how GM handled it. Seems like the manufacturers do a good job with it, and a module or something could simply be purchased and wired in. I dunno, I didn't go that route, either. I have a 350 in it now, due to expedience when I needed a trans in 2006. I wish I still had that 700, but I gave it up due to major travel for my company in those days. I didn't have time to deal with it, and the trans shop didn't want to touch the 700. Seems like some sharp guy could get into the NAND/XOR logic with some relays and make a workable solution with OTS parts other than what, say GM already has.
I use a n/o switch in the 4th gear pressure port. As 4th is applied this switch closes and completes the circuit to the ground switch in the governor pressure port. Governor pressure is proportional with vehicle speed. I have found that a 52 psi switch will lock the converter between 45-50 mph on most 2004R. This will give the delay after fourth is applied. You can fine tune the mph you want by changing this switch. Its easy (two holes to drill), it works and its cheap to do.
As stated by others, the brake switch is a must have item powered by a switched and fused power source.
I'm going to be curious how well I can get my lock up converter control working on my '69 Firebird using a MegaSquirt output. I can use TPS, Vaccum, gear and Speed to control it with a loop through the brake pedal. What's the cost of the control boxes? A cheap assemble it yourself $157 Megasquirt 1 would probably do 95% of this (or all?). It's $256 for an assembled base model unit these days.
