1021 hp from Buick 350, ran 8s in the quarter

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by sean Buick 76, Aug 15, 2010.

  1. Nothingface5384

    Nothingface5384 Detail To Oil - Car Care


    Take 1 of the 2 best builds and combine them

    take GSJohnnys .075 over 363 ad .100 stroke of Bob Makkley/Anthonys engine and BOOM
    373 buick..cant get any better then that...TA/Ken Betts upcomming AL heads would make this combo a Monster
     
  2. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut Staff Member

    After making the big number on the dyno they ran it in a car and then raised the boost... Eventually the heads cracked and can you blame them at an esitmated 1200 HP at high boost? Bill never did have a car to handle the power this engine made and it only got track time due to a racer freind popping brand x engine in a race car so they swapped it in and ran it. I am sure afer the guys fixed his good engine he was back to running faster than 8s.

    The Margel engine is still around although it will never be raced. There is a thread around here somewhere about what the new owner is doing with it... I almost bought it however with stock rods it was just a matter of time when pushed....

    The only reason 455 guys get out of joint over the 350 is "block envy", we do not need to go out and spend 20,000 to handle good power.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  3. Nothingface5384

    Nothingface5384 Detail To Oil - Car Care

    Neither do they lol..what's a ta block. Is like 6k..other then that performance build is a performance build..

    they have an easier time finding the weak link cause they got every part..we're as us 350 guys have to make custom parts to attempt to max out.

    be honest how many 350 guys are even at the max of a stock block bbb?
    Less then a dozen I'm sure..
    yours isn't running mine is not assembled
    . All the big hitter engines went Mia due to new ownership for the most part or they on bpg now due to stupid hypocritical comments

    we 350 guys need to just shut up and step up our game
    No vaporbuilds..
    let's build them and to tear it up
     
  4. bignastyGS

    bignastyGS Maggot pilot

    I understand your love for the 350,but to be honest,it sounds like they can be built to run big numbers,but able to sustain these for longevity. This, is why many people (me included) opt to have a BB built. Maybe I am a cheap skate or whatever,but I just wait around to buy others used BBB parts and build my 20,000 dollar motor for 1/4 the price.Personally,I don't ever see aluminum heads being produced for the 350 motor and that is really a shame,but the tooling costs would make the price of making them alone astronomical priced. I was thrilled to see a 1000 hp 350,but the longevity issues made me drop the idea. I will be putting a 464 motor in my car and I bought all the goodies plus another prepped 455 block for about a grand. All machine work done and all I am in need is a set of Stage 2 heads,headers and I should see 10's I would expect to be in a much higher price range if I would do the 350. I wish you all luck, and hope you can straighten out the head issues you encounter. I just wish there was more than 1 only car that runs a big hp 350 so we can compare them..
     
  5. pmuller9

    pmuller9 Well-Known Member

    Pat

    Are the blocks girdled?
    The reason I'm asking is I'd love to see more Stage 2 builds with some big HP numbers.


    Paul
     
  6. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    With the power and RPMs this thing runs at, you'd think it would be a Stage2 engine...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT1CdZnK1sU

    Those Stage1 designs seem to do pretty good now that everything high-end is aluminum.

    I could see Stage2 benefiting from forced induction or multi-carbs or something that increased the intake CFM to take advantage of the Stage2 exhaust design.

    ---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------

    The Buick 350 is an enigma for the most part, and few are willing (or have the resources) to venture out into unknown territory. Thanks to all these 'vapor builds' our understanding of this engine is growing by the day. It helps to break it down and analyze it to find a better understanding of what makes it tick so that when builds do begin to sprout up, they're well thought out and assembled properly with parts that work with each other, not against each other--simply because the parts used worked in some other engine design.

    Not everyone interested in the Buick 350 is looking for an alternative to big block power, though it is certainly an available venue. There's only a handful of big block owners looking for this kind of power, and the ones looking to the 350 for it are even fewer, mostly out of curiosity.

    The market for Buick 350 parts is pretty small, but has grown over the past several years thanks to information found on this website. I don't look for popularity in the Buick 350 to shrink at all, quite the opposite in fact, but not (entirely) for reasons this thread is about.

    Many people are selling off their 350's to swap in big blocks for that extra rush or disinterest or just giving up on the 350 because not enough people with enough money are willing to support it past the typical street rod build, which means there's more 350's available for those of us who are satisfied with a nice economical engine that's durable and powerful and different. :TU:


    You can only ask so much out of anything. We have a good idea of the limitations and we should just work with that. If everyone waits around for one or two guys to do something about the shortage of parts, just to see if it's going to be worth a damn or not, only to cash in on the benefits later on when it's finally finished and works like we said it would, it's only natural for the progression to be a long, slow one.

    The Buick 350 is genius engineering but it still has its limits. Someone will build something made out of something else that will be stronger and faster. It is inevitable. Why not just enjoy it for what it is and make our advances an adventure that more than just a handful of people can collaborate in for the benefit of the community and to get their names in the 'hall of fame' for the Buick 350?

    :beers2:
     
  7. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut Staff Member

    This is true Gary,

    I am under no illusion that the Buick 350 is the best factory engine in the world for max HP applications, there is no way. It is the best Buick design in my opinion although without the aftermarket heads it is destined to stay a 300-650 HP engine for the most part. Which is fine for most of us, I know I do not want much if anything over 650 HP...

    I am over trying to convince people the 350 is a good design, think what you want folks... I will just give the facts, specs, and history of what has been done and who provides proven work and parts for these engines.

    As always the best bang for the buck is the chevy LS engine and that is just technology moving forward.... But here in my town the LS 6.0 engines are going for $800+ for cores and I still find Buick 350s for $50-$150... Not that it really matters when doing a performance build because the core price is a fraction of the overall cost...

    In the end most of us that are using the 350 for performance builds are doing it for the challenge... The 350 will never be whipping all the LS engines at the track....And we know we have a solid platform with spare engines available for low cost if needed.

    ---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

    Do you realize how many high $ parts are needed for the new block, no low cost builds going on around that block... Good block but it is not even a Buick engine anymore if you ask me... which is fine, I like LS powered Buicks I am no purist... But $ for $ if using an aftermarket block the LS or BBC is a way better option once you give up on the factory blocks and bandaids...

    I know people call them Buick blocks and if it makes them feel Buick faithfull then great, whatever helps them sleep at night LOL.



    I am not going to shut up, I will continue moving forward bt not to prove anything to anyone other than myself.... This is no competition, not to me anyway... Mine is a mild street/strip build not a max effort setup.
     
  8. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"



    Just take the Buick 350 for what it is and focus on its strengths instead of trying to reinforce its weaknesses to compare it to other engines. I'm not speaking directly to you Sean, but as a rhetorical statement to anyone reading.

    The Buick 350 hammers out excellent power for a street/strip design. Doesn't matter what you build, someone will always have something faster. Technology vs technology, the Buick 350 is far better than the other engines of its era. You know it's a good design when you have to look to modern engine designs to compare it to for a better engine.

    No one can deny the coolness factor when building a Buick 350 though, and that's one of its strong points that no other engine design can compare to. Don't build a Buick 350 for a challenge, build it because it's a damn good engine! We have the info we need so far to make a really good hot rod engine, and the info just keeps coming. The more we learn the better it gets.

    The single plane intakes and roller cam designs are still solidly in the future, with other parts a possibility. Look at what the engine can do just based on custom parts already. It's nuts.

    The engine this thread is based on goes over the top of what the engineers designed it to do. It's venturing out of its familiar territory and is performing amazingly well. Who'd have suspected? This alone is a solid testament to the greatness that is the Buick 350, when it is kept in its familiar territory and expounded upon.

    I try to set aside my biases but it's difficult to do since my love for this engine will never die. There's more to it than simply being different for the sake of being different, the Buick 350 is genuinely an excellent engine choice and I love the engineering behind it.

    It has plenty of strengths to exploit. I say enjoy it and let's keep this thing alive! :TU:

    ---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------

    I have had to give up on that myself and swallow that big ole horse pill, calling hybrids 'FrankenBuicks' or whatever...but if you look at everything from its molecular level....it's still made up of iron, aluminum, etc. no matter who made it or where it came from, as long as its quality material.

    What we have here though to make the Buick a Buick isn't so much who made the materials, but the designing and engineering that still plays into the spirit of the original engineering.

    So I agree, Sean. Build it out of whatever, it's still a Buick. :TU:
     
  9. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    Out here the 350 Buick engined for sale are 500 to 1000 since they all think classic car part out means money. I see guys cutting up decent cars on craigslist just to make a few bucks all it means is one less to restore or sell parts to. But really , 700 for a engine that don't even know if it runs they just say it turns over with a wrench.so ya figure let them keep it I will find another.
     
  10. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut Staff Member

    One interesting part about the 1021 HP build is that there were representatives from Edelbrock at the dyno testing facility when the runs were made. Part of the reason that the cubes were kept at 355 and that the stock intake was used was to show that the stock design could make power without being stroked or poked. Keep in mind guys the rods were stock spec just stronger and same with the pistons and crank. A prototype set of heads was made however there really was no effort by Edelbrock put into the design... The aftermarket heads did not flow as well as the ported stockers which were about 290 intake and 190 exhaust... After a request for make modifications to the prototype nothing was ever done and the project was dropped. Then the icing on the cake to kill the project was when I asked Eagle Cranks to make me the same crank that they made for ______ Engine shop and then **** hit the fan due to an Eagle employee making an under the table custom crank.... I was merely trying to get the same crank and did not want to send in a stock crank and pay them $2000 for development cost when the work had already been done... Tension betwen ____ Engine shop and Eagle resulted and that is why the old threads got deleted and a lot of people did not believe this engine even existed...

    This engine made about 550 HP at 8:1 compression and just 355 cubes, nothing that exotic except stronger parts.

    The info that was gained in the testing was huge and after talking to Bill about this over the years there is no way that he could know the things he knew about the 350 unless this project was real.... Plus when the Eagle viasco happened it further proved this was for real. It was just a personal issue that went down after the Eagle things and that combined with the Edelbrock head failure it just died.

    ---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 PM ----------

    You should be able to find a good running 73-80 engine in a rusty or damaged car complete for $500 and then scrap the car...
     
  11. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    Well that sucks!

    I remember reading up about it and I absorbed most the info into memory. It's a damn shame the reason it died was because of some nonsense that had nothing to do with the engine project/design itself.

    Plenty of evidence still exists however for 600ish HP N/A 350's.

    290/190 CFM on Buick 350 heads is pretty good... that's a ratio of 65.5% which means a 9.5% emphasis on exhaust duration would be needed for that flow ratio, plus a matching of the lift @ flow...ironically, this ratio is only 1% different than stock untouched heads.

    If Edelbrock or whomever designed aluminum heads, they should probably focus more on exhaust runner design so more straight pattern cam designs could be put to use for higher-end performance engines.

    Hold your breath on that one...not! Odds are the iron heads are what we'll have to work with forever more, which is why it is imperative to make an exhaustive list of head designs, flow numbers and flow ratios from the varying years (hint hint...nudge nudge...)
    This way we know which heads will be good for what combination, and not have to 'boat anchor' the later head designs if they can be at least ported out to moderate flow numbers.

    Example: http://www.automachperf.com/350Stage1heads.html

    These guys use later heads and put in 1.94 intake valves while leaving the 1.50 exhaust (earlier stock size) alone. Flow is 230/150 for a 'street' job, with 260+/160+ potential for higher-end port jobs. Not too shabby for 'boat anchor' heads...

    This puts these heads at a 65% ratio, only .5% off from stock '71 ratio design.
     
  12. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    So edelbrock made a set of heads then bailed on the project. guess they didn't want to spend any money even if the made the first head.to bad we could not buy design work and casting sets.or the make the head and we do some finish portwork
     
  13. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut Staff Member

    Yeah, tried to talk to them about and it they denied they even made a 350 head... Good times.... I am over it... Boost will make up for the lack of alum heads.
     
  14. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    Sounds like something shady was going on in the background and they didn't want to implicate themselves for any litigation proceedings...

    Too bad the only real shot the Buick 350 had at getting some aftermarket aluminum heads pivoted on all that BS. Oh well!
     
  15. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    I found that bulldog had 350 heads in the works also but the 455 block ended bulldog. This info was published in "how to build max performance Buick engine" page 63. Also found that bulldog was bought by MT performance who does Cadillac engines. Wonder how far they got on them.wonder where the edelbrock heads ended up.
     
  16. Nothingface5384

    Nothingface5384 Detail To Oil - Car Care

    Our only hope now for 350 heads is Kenn Betts and collaboration with Mike of TA
    havent heard much in the past month or 3 on this subject
     
  17. BUICKRAT

    BUICKRAT Torque Rules!

    Block envy? Really, Sean? :Dou:
     
  18. bignastyGS

    bignastyGS Maggot pilot

    At this point.No,but I am currently scrounging up the cash for a set of heads and headers. I know it may be overkill, but I have always wanted a set of Stage 2 heads on one of my cars. Time is beginning to run out on me and I want to cross this off my bucket list. My goal,which my be too far out is to have a street car capable of 10's..Would have been so much cooler with a 350,but I had a great deal before me and I didn't pass on it.
     
  19. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    lol...

    So the sbb guys have head envy, the bbb have block envy... :p
     
    Dano likes this.
  20. Nothingface5384

    Nothingface5384 Detail To Oil - Car Care

    anyone still have the video of the engine?

    and didnt the intake side of the head crack or something due to the extreme porting to get them to flow 290? n/a
     

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