A modest proposal for tech inspection...

o No:
I guess someone needs to define "circus" that happened to Jimuzzled:

By circus, do we actually mean witness?

I thought certified cars were being held to a higher standard, and if so, a circus was in attendance to make sure that was actually going on.

 

The circus is everybody there besides the car, owner, and tech guy.

The guy's who run our Factory Stock class can do what they feel necessary to keep the class in check. We will support them with anything they choose to do, if they wanted to go into the F/S rules and cross the T's and dot the I's, loosen, tighten the rules, start a certified program, we will help anyway we can. Really this whole deal doesn't have to be only on Dan's back. Copo, Jimmy, or whoever they want to bring "on board" could come forward and do what they feel is needed.

The only thing we would ask is after they re-wrote the rules the would be NO room for interpretation.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the certification process was open for all to see?
Wasn't Spetzman at Jimmy Johnstons L88 Certifciation, giving the car a once over?

 

I would say that it was more of a witch hunt than a circus. In early colonial days, if a woman was suspected of being a witch, they threw her in the ocean. If she floated, she was a witch, since witches are made of wood. So they could burn her at the stake. If she drowned, she must not have been a witch afterall. Oops. o No:

Jims car passed certification, it was signed off on, he got the window sticker, it met the rules as written at the time, his valve job was no different that other cars that had certified. Also Jims car got probed all over with a bore scope, looking for lightweight internals and other illegal tricks of which none existed, a tactic which no other cars have been subjected to. Yet still, his car is being discredited and questioned with false accusations.

The "circus" part is that there was an audience scrutinizing the certification. Somehow o No: all these rumors started that Jims car was illegal, and it had these illegal necked down valves (stock on a 440) and more than 1 cut on the valve seat (NHRA Stock legal as per the written rules at the time) and ohmygosh a three eights of a pound fiberglass pad was missing on the firewall!

It's time to give Jim the credit he deserves and quit questioning the legitemacy of his car. It is the most proven legitemate, fastest certified stock car. And it will remain so untill some one steps up to the plate and goes thru the certification process, and runs quicker at the same event without removing the car from quarantine between the cert and the race.:3gears:

 

I talked to Jim right after his car was certified,and he did seem disturbed about a few things that happened.He said people were laying all over his fender,and just ripping into the car all over the place.It did indeed sound like a witch hunt,as Joel said.If Dan,Bob,and Scott,are doing the process,that is fine.But for other people, taking it upon themself to get involved,is somewhat undermining the process.I would not be happy if people started jumping all over my fenders.I take pride in my cars appearence first,performance is second.Now none of this certification directly effects me,as i really dont care that much about it.I wonder how many people do.How many cars certified last year? The year before? Of the cars that have certified,are they still running close to the times that they certified at,or like everybody else,have they found a little more,alot more?Not to take anything away from people that have done the process,as i admire thier efforts.I built my 69 GTO to certify,but running 12.7,s,does not put me at the head of my combo,so why bother? I dont know if i could handle people laying all over my fender anyway.Bottom line is,if Dan looks something over,and says its ok,who is anybody else to disagree??

 

Why certify?It's like pulling over a DOT guy and asking him if your truck and trailer are up to snuff and give me a alcohol test while we are here. When the rules are so gray what is the point? At the end you're a cheater anyway.Why tear your car apart so you can pour gasoline on your own fire.Might as well save the time and effort and just know you are gonna be a cheater anyway.

Bruno has a good philosophy too though:3gears:

 

Oh my God what am I doing ? This sounds like the SCCA:moonu: Everyone protesting everyone. I will go to E-Town for S/A.(Nov 8 & 9) Then? I built my car to have fun!! I will happy with 12's and having FUN!! Can't wait to see all the beautiful, fast Musclecars:beers2: :beers2: (thats what its about?:beers2: ) Oh and meeting new friends! (This is more serious than I thoght $$) Lighten up!!

 

I AM confused uzzled: why did Jim ever change his heads after he passed the certification and why did they revoke it?
Witch member of the cirrus ask him to change the heads or the valves was it the elephant man, bearded lady or the clown?:bla:
It must have been Dan, Bob or Scott right?

 

Great reading!! REMEMBER, JJ is the only 4 speed car in the top 5!!! I think the automatic transmission is something to start looking at. Manual valve bodies, reverse valve bodies, stall converters, full rollerized units, etc. With the exception of the roller bearing internals, the others can be addressed by simply driving the cars in the pits!!

 

With a non competitive car , I probably should stay out of this, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway.

I have no problem with Jim or the certification of his car or the process itself. What turned me off about the certification process was when JJ certified his car, then dropped out of competition when it had whatever problem with the lower end that would probably result in big time problems at Stanton.

I convoyed with him to Atlanta for the Commerce challenge soon after that. I can't remember his times, but they were impressive enough that I paid for half the dyno run just to see what that puppy would do.

To make such a big deal of Jim (please don't take this wrong, Jim) being the first PS car in the 11's and not acknowledging JJ's Vette, was wrong.... What he and the car have done since verifies my thoughts then....as far as I'm concerned.

OK, blast away..............

 

Gee, I guess I'm just naive. I got into the PSMCDR because it was the most fun, stress free type of racing to showcase our stock musclecars. Where did it fall off the tracks and become a feature show for the "top dogs"? I guess the other 155 "slower" cars are dog meat, eh? What's the point?? You only get to run another car just as fast as yours. Regardless if you're in the 16's or the 12's and 11's. I may be oversimplefying this, but geez. Give it a rest and have some fun instead of burning all this energy holding this whine-and-finger-pointing-fest.

If this was for money and/or sponsorship dough, I could see the level of competition and the need for teardowns. But this is supposed to be grass-roots, have some fun, racing. Have you guys lost sight of that along the way?

You "top dog" guys go ahead and tear down your engines down for all it's worth. Prove to the world you're "legal". Go for it. Just don't disturb me because I'll be sitting out in the grass pits surrounded by my best friends and enjoying our meals and beverages together having FUN and watching other real musclecars run down the track while you're busy bore scoping your engines and finger pointing at suspicious cheaters.

 

Could not have said it better myself:TU:

 

Re: A modest proposal for ass inspection...

Totally agree. Im there for fun. May as well scope some ass's to and give free colonoscopys. Im sure youll have just as many people in line for both. Let the people be and have fun. Who cares what your time is or where you are in the pack. I didnt see and money offered to the quickest 15 cars. It all costs us about$500 to attend and time. Life is to short to worry about everyone else except your self. Lets just continue eating good and partying.By the way who farted? See what your trying to do? Sit in your chair till the stink cleares and leave evryone else alone or dont attend. Chris

 

Frank,well said. I have been there two times now.Won once and lost once. Won the same thing both times there. Nothing!!! Not real sure what the point is because it really does not matter. Nothing to win other then to say "I won". Big deal!

 

Rumor has it that the clown reported seeing the elephant man with the bearded lady bent over Jim's fender ??? Any truth to that ?:bglasses:

 

Everybody has a different idea of fun. Some guy`s have fun just by showing up and gathering with friends, some guy`s just enjoy the challenge of going faster with a specific set of rules and for those guy`s that`s what is *fun* for them, i believe most of the guy`s can leave the track happy if they ran their personal best reguardless if they win or lose and that`s what`s *fun* for them.

Some guy`s like to see our favorite brand on top and that`s what makes them smile all the way home. That`s what this whole post is about.....

There`s one problem and if somebody stepped up and fixed this problem this discussion can come to a close, forever... (the problem is not fun, everybody has fun) The F/S & PSMCDR rules are written in a way that there`s LOT`S of room for interpretation, it`s up to each guy to decide if he wants to stay "with-in the spirit" of the rules, depending on the mood some things are OK to let slide and somethings are not. That`s the problem, if the rules were written down in a clear "black in white" manner there would be no room for interpretation, Dan or the leaders of the F/S class wouldn`t have to interpret a damn thing and frankly it would take a ton of pressure off of them when they are teching the cars. If something "iffy" shows up they could go right to the rule book and say "well.. here`s what the rules say in black in white and your car is not legal, sorry"

Example, Here`s the piston rule:

Pistons must be of the original design for the year and horsepower claimed. Replacement forged pistons are allowed as long as they do not increase compression.

In the spirit of the rules a guy might just go out and buy factory replacement pistons. A piston with no gas porting, light weight tricks, standard ring grooves, etc. If this is "indeed" what the F/S racers want the rule should be written more like this

Pistons must be of the orginal design for year and HP claimed, no light weight rings, no low tension rings, no undercut rings to reduce friction, standard tension oil rings must be used, absolutely no gas porting of any kind from the top or sides of the pistons, piston pins must be orginal size for the year and HP claimed, no lightweight pins allowed, no secondary ring cuts allowed in ring grooves, no lighten of pistons in any way, shape, or form, absolutey no coatings allowed on tops, underside or sides of pistons.

If the F/S racers want to free things up a bit and keep the class progressing maybe the rule should read like this:

Pistons must be of the original design for the year and horsepower claimed.

As a racer if the rules don`t say "you can`t do it" than to me it`s legal and that`s how most guy`s look at it. Re-due the rules and go over every single piece of the cars like the above and everybody will than have the same rules to run under, screw the spirit

 

Hi, just my 2 cents. Been coming since 2000, got finally to participate last year and had a blast. With all this b*tching could we possibly scare or turn people off from coming? I personally could care less who is certified or who isn't, I love seeing the cars and meeting the people. This is one of the best things going and I would hate to see it go by the wayside. Dan and Bob have been doing a great job. Cudos for the guys at F.A.S.T. to. You know what they say, politics and religion make for great arguments, let's not add PSMC to it please

Nick Tomlinson
1972 GS 455 stg1
13.12@104
.

 

I think the fact that the car count goes up every year(even in this crap economy)says that nothing is really broken.I mean 140 cars,with a weather forecast that should have kept everybody home speaks volumes of the dedication of the racers.95% of the guys are thier strictly to have a good time,and dont care where they end up in the ladder.Thank God for the guys that run in the middle or end of the pack,they add diversity.If everybodys goal was to be fastest,then it would be boring watching one Corvette,and Hemi after the other.

 

Just for fun, some guy's want to party, some want to drink some want to just hang out that's fine by me I will never bad mouth what someone want to do what they call fun for them, but for me it's something different I want to be the best I can be no matter what I am doing to each is own. I see that everyone is different as Dave has said I will not bother your party Frank, but if it's just for fun why did a few guy's kick out and go on to start F.A.S.T? Why did we not all race and party at stanton every year? Because we broke the rules as written and were ask to leave thats why. Now if it just for fun maybe next year I bring the wrong corvette to stanton same color looks the same under the hood would that be fun?
Call me crazy all I want to know is what are the rules, are they what are written on the web site and what rules are going to be enforced at the track are they the same? I want to play by the same rules as everyone else is that so wrong? I pulled apart Julies engine because the head tech guy named Scott Tieman told me to, I was just trying to what I was asked by the powers to be sorry if it offended anyone.

 

This is just a discussion plain and simple, you guy`s can chill out the world is not comming to an end.. Let`s just change the topic to "what`s your favorite color for a musclecar" for god sake...

This topic "IS" an issue, I know a few guy`s who want to certify and i`ll use myself as an example.

If i do build a car for Dad, I definitly want to run with the "big dogs", (the certified guy`s) Here`s my problem: I really want to give it an honest effort and I "DO NOT" want to cheat in any way, shape, or form. If everybody is building a 100% stock short block than that`s what I`ll do. But I`d hate like hell to spend all the money to build a 100% stock short block and come out running 12.70`s and everybody else is running 11.80`s. If everybody is running a killer short block with the stock stroke and the only concern is the pistons have to measure at NHRA spec (how deep or how far they come out of the block) than that`s what I`ll build. If everybody is running lighter pistons with killer rings and that`s the norm for the faster cars?? That`s what I`d like to do, plain and simple. I just want to do what everybody else is doing to see if we can cut the muster so to speak.

Besides the few guy`s who are doing it everybody else is wondering what`s legal or not Trust me I know several guy`s in this exact boat, they want to play and "do not" want to cheat, they just want a level playing feild.

Again guy`s just a discussion............