I just used the Joe Gibbs DR break in oil 10-40 to break in this solid cam and it did great no extra ZDDP needed. Use Nothing else Anything else said is bullcrap unless it came from here.
I researched the sh** out of this before I put oil in and this is the oil I went with and DO NOT add any more ZDDP to this. This Is the right way I have been driving car on and off for month now on that oil and cam does not make a sound. Do this and be done with it.
Yep. Too much ZDDP can have detrimental effects by creating high acid pH. Sometimes, following what the engineers recommend, after doing their homework, is easy.
Graduated Auto Diesel School in 77. Started career on EMD Locomotives and then Stork/MWM/ Brons GV / Mitsubishi / White Hercules / and Mitsubishi Sultzer 150 RPM / 7500 horse ship engines. 39hp to 7500 HP……. 140 Rpm to 900 to 2100 RPM Natural Gas And Diesel If it fit in a Supply Boat/ River Tug / Natural Gas Platform or Oil Rig, I either heard of it or worked on it. Now I work around TurboProps and Helicopters still doing Diesel and Gasoline support work for a govt Contractor. I have 2 engines here that are 37 years old. The Heads/ Oil pans or timing covers have never been off. Knock on wood. I lost 2 cams in 04 and 05 when the lifter and cams were outsourced overseas. Later. We realized that Both cams failed due to oil, and outsourcing cams and lifters. The truth of the lifter / cam fast one took some digging until the failure rates went sky high and someone starting fessing up…. We didn’t have Penn or Gibbs available in 05. Just Rotella and GM EOS….. Customer (my friend) changed to a energy conserving oil too soon. He never had a HP engine before. That is one reason I hang around this forum. I read I listen. I listen some more. There is a pretty good knowledge and wisdom base. Opinionated at times, but that isn’t always a bad thing I got caught out on 2 cams and incorrect oil. Never Again. Think about using a break in oil. For the initial and the first 400 to 500 miles. Stay away from energy conserving oils and IMHO stay away from 0w- anything weight oils on this engine. my.02 cents….
While I'm gathering data on oils from different research papers, I wanted to ask you guys what qualities of break in oil convince you to use it? The zinc content? The viscosity? I just haven't found any real proven lab data on what makes them better than regular oils like a napa 10w-40. And if you do have real data to share by all means send it, I'd really like to read through it.
FWIU the ZDDP PPM was lowered 20yrs ago is it was supposedly killing catalytic converters... Ugly thing is leaded gas out.. CC come into play and the spit out some other bad gases... Reality take simple Simon TBI car that runs good take a exhaust reading of it..... Next cut out the CC. Replace with pipe take new reading, Without the CC the reading will be clearer...
I used Lucas break-in SAE 30 because it had the correct levels of ZDDP and was available on Amazon. Almost nothing useful is on the shelf these days. On a previous engine, I used Joe Gibbs break-in oil 5W-30 and it seemed to work fine but wasn't as available online when I was looking. I think they got bought or renamed to Driven. About any of the HotRod break-in oils that advertise higher ZDDP should be good.
You use the joe Gibbs oil because it is the best one to use period. I went over to yellow bullit and looked at what other people had done and that is where I got most of the info and I also looked on U-Tube and searched there. I have a chart around here that shows how much zddp is in each oil I will see if I can find it, I just did some of my own research in other areas and this is what I cam up with. Hey look, I asked over here on what to do about this oil and ZDDP not many answers.
Okay so its high zddp that makes break in oils more enticing? I'll put together some data for that exactly and post it once it's ready, maybe tomorrow if I feel I've got enough
How I look at it is simple, NO LARGE COMPANIES give a rats patoot about old anything, doesn’t matter if it’s Buick engines or Chevy, Ford or Mopar. These niche companies like Penn Grade (Brad Penn) and Gibbs DO! TA Performance for example, they make, critique, and market parts in the USA, for us and a few other makes, they know what’s needed and HOW it’s supposed to be made, and it’s made with AMERICAN precision! You’re going to pay a few bucks more for ANYTHING for our older cars if you want the right stuff. The correct engine oil is pricey, but you put junk oil in your engine and that stuff is circulating around and bit by bit causing damage, all the while you think things are fine.
Here's data I gathered as to why "regular" oils are completely okay for break in and further service. Tested facts -ILSAC GF4, GF5 and GF6 specify a Zinc limit for 5W-30 and lower oils, however, even the reduced zinc GF4 oils pass Sequence IIIG Test which ensures flat tappet cam system wear inhibition, further explained in the 'Testing Results' section below -When ZDDP was reduced, other anti-wear additives were increased. About the time ILSAC ratings came to be, the technology to dissolve higher amounts of organic calcium matured. The calcium carbon derivatives help the total base number of the oil, keeping a steady ph level longer, as well as improve detergency and in higher concentration boost the anti-wear properties of the oil. In addition to organic calcium, the oils often get increased levels of molybdenum, improving extreme pressure qualities and further reducing wear. So oils with modest ZDDP levels, higher calcium and moly actually have better anti-wear properties. -No other API rated oil is limited in its zinc content, which results in virtually every API rated oil to contain over 600ppm Zinc -Above 1700ppm zinc, intergranular corrosion on cast iron will occur over a longer period of time -SAE and GM testing found that 400 to 500ppm of zinc is the best amount for wear inhibition for both break in and further service -EVERY oil with SN or SP rating must also pass test sequence IIIG Testing results -From “A Field Test Study of Camshaft Wear in a 2.3L OHC Engine and Its Correlation to the Sequence V - D Test” where five oils were tested in four cars each, changing oil every 24,000km. Refer to picture for the chart and conclusion, I couldn't paste it here from my Google doc -From “Development of the Sequence IIIG Engine Oil Certification Test” which was conducted by GM powertrain, PerkinElmer Automotive Research, Southwest Research Institute and OH Technologies. The goal was to test oils in their ability to inhibit wear in cases with increased severity, being high temperature and oxidation of approximately twice the amount of a previously conducted Sequence IIIF Test. The testing was conducted initially using non phosphated camshafts, and later switched to phosphated ones, with an increased valve spring weight of 205 lbf both done to simulate flat tappet pushrod engine designs. Here, the total lifter and camshaft wear equalled 51 microns for 300ppm Zinc and 18 microns for both 500ppm and 950ppm, which shows that increasing zinc content further than the minimum required amount, will not inhibit further wear. Again, oils must pass IIIG testing in order to receive SN or SP ratings.
I suspect one thing that isn't being taken into account is the increased spring pressure that aftermarket cams are typically used with. We are talking about OHV with cam-in-block, direct lifter on cam. Your "evidence" is an OHC 4-cylinder engine, which is typically going to be a roller follower so you are using a lower pressure orange to our higher pressure flat tappet apples. You are trying to convince yourself (because nobody here but you believes it) that nothing but regular oil required. You do you. Your cam, your lifters, your money, your choice.
First thing that came to mind here, too. Our flat tappet applications are typically not typical, I don't remember where my TA_1160 dual springs are set at full valve lift, but well over 300 lbs if I remember. There's an unintended pun in the statement "your mileage may vary". But in this case it ain't fuel economy, rather potential for longevity. Devon
You can do what you feel is right but I just got done doing this with new cam and that Joe Gibbs BR oil will do the exact job you want for breaking in cam and engine. Only thing I did different was take out the inner springs from each valve. I have been driving this way for a month now only about maybe 40 miles. I was real worried about this as flat tappet cams have been failing like mad. I say this oil I used made me feel good after having a solid lifter cam go 20 minutes at 2 grand and it still sounded nice and quiet when I was done. I changed the filter put more oil in and so far all is good. Right now I would not trust the regular oil since I now know what is and is not in the Joe Gibbs BR 10-40 oil I have seen the numbers on that. If I could figure out how to post a pdf I would you will just have to take my word for it. I have ran and raced this engine for over 30 years if you can't believe what I am saying I can't help no more. products I used to make this all happen for my break in
Well I don't really see how a higher spring pressure would cause the oil to act differently as long as the lifters spin in the bore. You don't use a really heavy spring for break in anyway. If the spring tension is too high it'll stop the lifters from spinning and fail no matter what oil is protecting the cam anyway right? If there adequate wear inhibitors in the form of zinc or others, the cam and lifters will be okay. If you have data proving otherwise I'll gladly look because I'm trying to learn this stuff myself, especially from real testing being done
Think of it like this.. The higher ZDDP ppm is like lots of roller bearings for the break-in.. Standard Napa 10w-30 is just like a oily lube.... The Driven HR-2 10w-30 is like the higher break-in oil but like ball bearing..... It you motor your money I don't care what you do........ FWIW I just un-watched this thread.. Good luck...
That's not true at all, you have data proving that higher zddp ppm does nothing to further reduce wear, too high and it'll corrode the cast parts. I just want to know where you're getting this information from because for all the research I've done I cannot find it
I tend to agree with 33chifox that the value of "break in oil" is over rated. On the other hand, it's been a long time since I built an engine and I don't even think there was "break in oil" back then. It's cheap extra step to help your new engine start off right... I would use it for that reason alone. On the other hand I think the basics are much MORE important. Engine is properly assembled and properly lubed. Everything is set up correctly for a quick start and you break it in right. A poster above suggested that you should run it for 400-500 miles? Is that right? I would not have thought that. When I broke in my 350 I think I drove it about 125 miles, then dumped the oil and filter, looked it over, and switched to synthetic...
It really seems that when zinc content in oil was lowered (still well above the required amount for break in and further use), companies created or perpetuated the myth that there isn't enough zinc anymore and made oils with insane amounts of it zinc in it, some as much as 3500ppm and said it'll save flat tappets, when you've got real data from companies like GM, organizations like the SAE or ASTM that the zinc and other anti wear additives are enough for safe break in and running after it. Driven doesn't even have data sheets, just empty claims
