My girlfriend is looking into bying a replacemenT for her LEMON 96 Intrepid. She's looking to spend around 10-13. She wants something that moves a bit, and doesn't look like it's a soap bar. It should preferably be a bit more solid mechanically then the intrepid which has been HORRIBLE! Any suggestions? K.
I would say that there probably are more "lemons" in US cars. Your girlfriend had a "bad" Intrepid and....my girlfriend just traded her 93 Intrepid in and it only had routine maintenance in 130,000 miles. She liked it so much she got a new Intrepid SXT..... Camry's are more consistent....and boring. Bruce
Tell her certified Toyota Corolla, it has a few options so it doesnt look like a soap bar. Toyota Matrix, by no means soap bar when it has the full spoiler package. Ummmm... thats all i can think of now. And tell her to wait no matter what for the end of the month, it helps alot, or end of the model year if she can. And if shes doesnt like the color some dealers give you cash back. Look for special events too like Toyota's Red tent event. Goodluck. Keep me posted Kimson.
The Subaru is just about the only car that can claim a longevity advantage. The boxer engine takes a lot less loading than a conventional inline. Less wear, less fatgue. In most other cases it comes down to maintenance. The vast majority if import buyers take thier cars to the dealer for servicing. They get over-maintained and so ont he average, to compnay can report that thier cars last longer. Take a GM car in for serious maintenance and it will last as long as any import. They are no better, no worse. If they truly last longer, then what are the import companies doing differently? On cl;oser inspection we find the answer is: nothing. Take apart an import engine and you'll find the same engineering decisions as in a GM. Same quality control, and identical design specs. I've seen hondas 5 years old and smoking blue, and have run a GM car into the 500k's. I'll stake my claim for longevity squarely in maintenance.
This is a lot of speculation with little fact. I highly doubt that the engineering is the same. Sounds like you're really reaching on this one. Have you ever seen the tolerances used on the Honda engines? GM is WAY behind. I totally disagree with this. GM cars are coming from the factory with flawed engineering. The examples are numerous. On my Grand Am, it's common knowledge that there is an intake gasket problem, and yet there is no push to fix it. Brakes on those cars wear out in 8000 miles, typically. Everyone that owns a later model GM car with power windows will find out the design flaw with that sooner than later because they are failing. True, no car is immune when it comes down to a lack of maintenance. That's not what I was talking about. It's laughable to guess that import owners service their cars more than American car owners. Where did you get that from? There ARE in fact design issues with GM vehicles that make them less reliable than a Toyota. Now, I know that Honda has some issues of their own (fuel pumps, for example). I would be willing to bet that there are a lot less of them than in most GM products. If anyone knows of a solid way to research this, I have $100 that says I'm right! Same quality control and design specs? You have got to be joking!
Yes, you are right. The quality and design standards are different as evidenced by the CV boots failing on them...... And the fact that they used timing belts in the inferior engineering....:laugh:
Bruce, I guess it's easier to pick apart the 1 or 2 things you've seen fail, and overlook the multitude of problems GM has. Nothing like living with your head in the sand. Ever seen a timing chain stretch or break? I believe it has happened. What is the lifetime on one of our good old timing sets for the v8's? Is it really longer in practice than the 100K+ for the timing belts (that btw are used by everyone- including in the intrepid that was mentioned before). I wonder which is the more EFFICIENT design?
60 K for most belts and 200K for a chain IF you change the oil. BTW Toyota has big problems with oil coking in Sienna vans and Camrys. Seems the oil runs too hot. Sounds like engineering to me....maybe not engineered for the US market. They are replacing whole engines now and advising more frequent oil changes or synthetic. Wiping the sand off my faceou:
Actually the Intrepid that my girlfriend had did have a chain (no maintenance), the new one has a belt with a change interval. Progress, not too sure.....does has good power (250 hp) though.....
60K? Where did you get that number? I've never seen a service schedule that showed the timing belt needing replaced before 100K. Yeah, and I'm sure that there are a lot of 200K mile motors out there that are running great. I guess we should have stayed with the good old American technology because it was so reliable. What is your source of information on the Toyota motor problem? And, how frequent is the recomended oil change interval. My 88 Toyota schedule was something crazy like 6k miles between changes, which we all know is way too long. Sound more like a maintenance issue to me than an engineering issue. Better keep digging.
I like the Intrepids. Nice big comfortable cars with good power. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the front end issues inherent to all front drive Chrysler products. They have bearings and CV joints going all the time. I'm sure the boots are intact though, right?
The coking probem is common knowledge....i.e. in the news. 60K was the common standard esp. for Nissan and Honda. I knew a guy that used a Camry for sales....lots of driving....60K a year....2nd year the belt went lots of $$$ to fix. His previous car (Olds, 3.0 Buick) went 270K, 5 years (rod bearing went)
All of the stories I've read about the Toyota engine problem sounds like a recording from talking to my uncle last night about his 97 Toyota Avalon. He said that he changed his oil "on schedule" and had no problems then last week the oil light came on one night. He checked his oil but everything looked fine. He decided to take it to the dealership the next day but the car gave out on the highway. He had it towed to the dealership and they told him that the engine had blown and that it would cost about $8,000 to get a new one. He said up until that point he had no major problems with the car. It was a 1997 and had about 70,000 miles on it. Even with irregular maintenance, an engine should not have to be replaced after 70,000 miles. I'll be interested to know if anyone can get a satisfactory resolution from Toyota or what actions they've taken to get any resolution. Seems this is happening too many times to be a coincidence. Sam - sreid@reidconsulting.net
QUOTE from Autoweek: With its jealously guarded reputation for quality under attack because of sludge-clogged engines, Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. last week unveiled two major efforts aimed at defusing the problem. First, the automaker said it has made a running production change to its widely used 3.0-liter V-6 engine that will improve circulation by enabling oil to drain faster into the sump - an apparent acknowledgement that engine design has been at least part of the problem.
more QUOTE: Amid increasing criticism for refusing to deal with the problem, Toyota notified 3.3 million owners of the affected engines that sludge-related repairs would be covered for one year, as long as they proved the oil had been changed at least once in the previous year. It insisted then - as it does with the new policy - that owner negligence is the cause of the problem. About 3,400 complaints In contrast to the February offer, Toyota's new policy: Has no mileage limitation. Covers owners who buy used vehicles. Reimburses drivers who already have paid for repairs Includes payments for tow trucks, rental cars and other incidental expenses resulting from engines that fill with sludge. Toyota says it has received about 3,400 sludge-related complaints since 1999. Spokesman John Hanson says the automaker never denied coverage to any customer who could prove the vehicle's oil and filter were changed at the specified maintenance intervals called for in the owner's manual. But there are about 100 entries in the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's Consumer Complaints database from Toyota and Lexus owners who say they they were not reimbursed. Many complainants say they could prove with receipts that they followed proper maintenance procedures, but were told the sludge problem was caused by abuse and wouldn't be covered. Hundreds of other angry customers, some claiming repair bills as high as $8,000 and stuck with vehicles they were still paying for but couldn't drive, have vented their anger on the Internet or taken their complaints to lawyers. George Peterson, president of AutoPacific, a consulting firm in Tustin, Calif., said Toyota is doing the smart thing by no longer holding customers responsible for the problem. "The best way for a company to respond to any issue like this is not to point a finger and say, it's your fault or my fault, but to just fix it," he said. No major changes According to Toyota, there have been no major changes to the V-6 engine in the last 10 years that would be responsible for the sludge. But in the last three years, Toyota has added variable valve timing to the engine and it has gained low emissions certification. The majority of sludge complaints involve the V-6 in the 1998-2001 Sienna minivan. The problem has surfaced on a smaller scale in the Camry sedan and a few Lexus RX 300 sport-utilities and ES 300 sedans. Independent automotive technicians, engineers and an oil company chemist say the sludge buildup could be the result of a combination of factors that include temperature, manufacturing, engineering, design, driving habits and poor maintenance. Temperatures are critical Bruce Crawley, a lubrication specialist for ExxonMobil Corp., said the first thing he would look for in investigating a sludge problem would be "cold spots" on surfaces where the oil circulates, because large variances in internal engine temperatures can cause sludge. "You don't want any cold spots because that's where you get acid forming," he said. "You'll get oil coming up one way and acid coming down the other way, and ultimately they contact. On some engines you can actually see where that is happening because you'll see deposits in a particular part of the engine where there is a cold spot." Hanson of Toyota said the changes the company began making last month to the V-6 will make the engine better able to withstand long periods between oil changes. He repeated Toyota's contention that there is no problem with the engine's design. "Under the cam cover is a baffle system," he said. "It allows oil to collect and condense and drip down into the cylinder head. Dirty vapor collects there and clogs up. "We are going to change the baffling and enlarge the holes. That makes the oil drain faster and enhances the engine's ability to function under duress." But Larry Parry, an independent repair technician in Orlando, Fla., and host of a radio auto-repair talk show, says Toyota's change to the oil baffles won't stop the sludge from building up. "There's nothing on top of the engine restricting the drain at all in that motor," he said. The internal temperatures are the problem, contends Parry. Parry said he has measured the temperature of the cylinder block and heads. He said the block runs at 190 to 210 degrees Fahrenheit, while the heads typically reach 260 to 270 degrees. Parry, who says he has repaired about 30 sludge-filled Toyota engines since 1998, contends the V-6's cylinder head temperature is too high because Toyota reduced the size of coolant passages in the head gaskets. He says that makes for a hotter, cleaner burn, but also causes sludge to build up because the oil gets too hot. Also, Parry says, sludge develops as the oil passes back into the block, which is running 60 to 70 degrees cooler. According to General Motors, the industry standard for temperature differences between the cylinder head and engine block is between 10 and 15 degrees. Hanson said cooling passages were not made smaller and there are no 60-degree temperature variances inside the engine. Toyota: Oil monitor possible Hanson said Toyota is considering a system similar to one used by General Motors on 2002 vehicles that warns drivers with a dashboard light when it is time to change their oil. The GM system uses a computer program to estimate when oil is worn out, based on engine usage patterns. The system costs less than $10 per vehicle. Meanwhile, Toyota dealers said last week they are not being overrun by customers with sludge-damaged engines. "There's been talk about (paying for repairs caused by oil gelling) over the past few years," said Ken Joswiak, general manager of La Fontaine Toyota in Dearborn, Mich. "Obviously it was big enough for this to turn into what it has here. But it's not like we're seeing a stampede of customers at our door wanting their cars fixed."
Are you kidding? I don't know about foreign cars and newer cars, but my 89 Escort GT (yeah I know) had a change interval of something like 45k for the timing belt. I waited until like 108k and took a HUGE chance according to some of the horror stories I've heard when timing belts break on those older Escorts.
All i know is that a toyota if the daily driver for me! And im proud of it. Everyone has there own brand of cars they like or that are good to them. Thats why there are alot of makes out there.
Ok, here's what I know from 13 years personal experience in a Toyota dealership. This was not formed via friends/internet/newspaper etc.: 1. The 1997 -2001 Camrys/Sienna's/Avalons do in fact have an issue with engine sludge. Toyota is spending millions of dollars for repairing these at no cost. But guess what? I have NEVER had to repair an engine with documented oil changes every 5,000 miles. Not one. Not ever. And we are the largest central Ohio dealer. Every single one we have done, the customer has not been able to come up with ANY documention of oil and filter changes at correct mileages. A few have come up receipts showing an average of 10-12,000 mile intervals. All the whining stories you hear are flat out BS. Loyal customers who do their oil and filter changes DO NOT have oil sludge. I personally looked at hundreds of them when Toyota issued the campaign 2 years or so ago. Coincidence? I think not. So I agree with Toyota. 2. Toyota is trying to make the engines more resistant to abuse, which is extremely common among Toyota buyers. They think if dads Corolla went 50,000 miles with no oil change, so should theirs. I am sorry, but I see it every day. 3. Most Toyota service departments do not have specialized engine or transmission techs. Why? Because they wouldn't have much to do. Our Ford and Chevy dealers have 3 or 4 guys that do nothing but drive-train recalls! And they stay very busy. 4. Toyota's break, even perfectly maintained ones. After all, humans do build them. What do you own that NEVER breaks? Toyota's just break less often. 5. Toyota has never had a government mandated recall in thier history. They are very proactive, and issue them without being told to do so, unlike some others. 6. If you have a sludge problem call Toyota at 18003314331, and they can assist you. Sorry, but I needed to set the record straight. This thread is getting off course I know, but there is so much wrong information out there.:TU:
3. Most Toyota service departments do not have specialized engine or transmission techs. Why? Because they wouldn't have much to do. Our Ford and Chevy dealers have 3 or 4 guys that do nothing but drive-train recalls! And they stay very busy. 4. Toyota's break, even perfectly maintained ones. After all, humans do build them. What do you own that NEVER breaks? Toyota's just break less often. 5. Toyota has never had a government mandated recall in thier history. They are very proactive, and issue them without being told to do so, unlike some others. Derek, Thanks for the info. I think you are confirming what I said in my reply yesterday and that is that when the US makers find a known flaw they try to hide it or fight it instead of being proactive and informing customers who may have not even had a problem up to that point. They only care about the sale and not about the loyalty factor. The GM V6 intake manifold gasket problem is a perfect example. They aren't about to cover one dime of any repairs. Have you ever fought one of these dealers? You end up having to go thru the "zone office" and at best they might foot just a portion of the bill. It's basically buyer beware. It amazes me that the majority of the problems/recalls in this country really boil down to the fact that cheap parts were used.
