Has anyone ever block filled a sbb 350?

This build isn't for me so I can't say if he'll want billet heads or not but if in I had to guess I would say probably not. We're only looking to make around a measly 800 HP with a max 20 psi of boost so alcohol isn't even in the plans. o Noexcept to toast after its running :Brow Not sure if there are plans to street drive it or not either but just in case I don't want to get to carried away with the fill.

This engine will be a sbb 380 cid/350 stroker with a factory stroked crank so won't need anything that exotic with this one I don't think. If he had a billet crank though then maybe? :Brow:



Derek

 

What heads will this engine be using?

 

Way back when on my 455, I filled the bottom 1" or so with heated lard (Crisco, I think). Before I poured the lard in I inserted vinyl tubing where ever I wanted a passage from the bottom to the top. After it cooled off and hardened up, I poured the block fill on top, to within 1" (or was it 2"?) of the top. When that set up, I pulled the tubes out, then melted the lard out with a kerosene bullet heater.

I never really knew if what I did worked well or not, but it didn't seem to cause any problems, either.

I did get it a little tight around the water pump passages and had to work on that area to open it up some. Hard block is hard!

 

Hey Paul, Merry Christmas my friend!

Will be using slightly altered sbb 350 cast iron factory heads, is there any other choice? Even if the white whale heads ever come out the plans are still for the mentioned heads. :eek2:

What have you been up to? Still playing with those Ford straight 6 engines?




Derek

 

Derek
Merry Christmas to you also. I sent a PM

FWIW, We started off with race gas and water block on the twin turbo SBF. The problem was water leakage under the head at boost as Ken pointed out even with 1/2" studs.
We switched to a complete block fill with solid billet heads and used methanol. Of course it was track only.

If this is track only you certainly can get away with complete block fill and water only through the heads with E85.

Paul

 

This sounds like an interesting option as well, thank you. Might even be easier to clean out than wax as well? Although both ways seem messy to me but it is what it is, whatever I need to do to get the job done.

I have about a month to figure this out so if anyone else has any other ideas please feel free to add, thanks.

I just took some block pics as well that I will eventually post so everyone that's following this thread can have a visual of what we're dealing with. I think Dan's upside down idea is going to be hard to beat because I think I can get the fill all the way to the bottom on one side doing it that way with 2 setups? While still having the volume of flow that needs to happen in an engine.

Here is a little break down of what we're dealing with how the block is;

With a 10.188" deck height there is only about 4 1/2" to 5" of cylinder that is cooled! And there is about 2" from the top of the water pump passage to the bottom of the water jacket with the hole about 1 1/2" long. So Dan was right by saying that only to leave about an 1/2" from the inside bottom of the deck for coolant because of not that much cylinder is cooled in the first place! So basically the thickness of the deck plus 1/2" for coolant I'm thinking so far. That would be about 2" to 2 1/2" of fill in the center with possibly one side all the way to the bottom? o No: (we'll see)

The cylinder extensions in the bottom that protrude into the crankcase that aren't a part of the cooled cylinder section are about an extra 1" for guiding the factory pistons.(pics to follow) No wonder this block is so strong for how long the deck height is!! I knew the block was like this before I started looking into this but never measured it before! Its actually a really stout design for how light it is! :eek2: :TU:

To be continued......................





Derek

 

If Andy would chime in and declare it is a race only engine, then we can look at filling it all the way?

The Head gaskets I helped(more like pushed) Scott Brown to have available are suppose to be good to 20 psi, not sure if Andy will run that much or will even need to run that much with this build to hit his HP goals? So I'm not sure we need to go to a total fill with this engine? If it was mine I wouldn't go that way because we're only using a factory crank so we may already be pushing the limits?

As far as I know the engine will be dynoed N/A with me, then Andy will add some sort of boost device after he decides what car to install it in? o No: But Dave might have a way to get it dynoed with boost? We'll see. ray:


Derek

 

How thick will the cylinder walls be after boring to 4.005"?

 

Noooooooo,(LOL) will be a .105" overbore which is 3.905" with the sonic testing very favorable for that overbore. Its been a while so I can't recall off hand what or where the thinnest cylinder are or will be.

If I can't find the sonic test notes before machining, I'll do the test again.(wish I posted that in the other thread, woulda shoulda coulda, oh well)




Derek

 

Not sure where I got 4.005" from? LOL

You will have a much better chance at 3.905"
Sometimes with a power adder, the walls will crack just above the block fill on a partial.
Turbocharging is the easiest power adder on the bottom end over supercharging and nitrous.

 

Should be ok with the fill 1/2" below the thickness of the deck, should be super strong that way. The water pump holes are at the bottom of the cylinders as well so it will be an upside down type of fill, new to me but its looking better and better the more the old hamster runs on its wheel in my head. LOL

Should only be 3/4" to 1" from the deck's surface, that small of a distance should remain strong even if it is at a marginal thickness, which IIRC the sonic test would say otherwise.




Derek

 

Just a quick sidetrack.
What cam and specs are you going to use?

 

No it's not just race . How would that be any fun. Haven't got to cam yet. Roller was in mind. But we should check rod clearance first.

 

New idea.

get LACrafts
Micro Foam Beads for Stuffing and Filler .

fill from bottom up to top of freeze plugs.

install water tubes were needed.

pore hard block from the top to 1/2 inch of top.

use gasoline to dissolve Styrofoam. make sure gasoline does dissolve the beads first .

I think gasoline will dissolve Styrofoam cups.

Dan*

 

Lacquer thinner will vaporize styrofoam

 

Two things occur to me, with this method of block filling.. (filling from the deck to the top of the frost plugs)

1. I am not a fan of half filled anything.. seen several blocks break right above (or below in this case) the fill. When I fill a block these days, it's all the way up to 1" from the decks. Just enough space is left for water to travel from front to back, and I use 3/8 heater hose from the water pump inlet up to the deck to maintain a water passage from the pump. The OD is just about 1/2. Water is also fed to the rear of the head thru a fitting tapped in to the back of the intake manifold, in line with the water ports on the head. Water returns normally via the front of the head, intake and upper radiator hose.

2. One of the great advantages of filling the block is that you deaden/absorb harmonic resonance. Not sure how a "top half" fill would do here, never done one.

I can see why one would want to do this, in relation to oil cooling, just curious if it's really needed, and how effective it is. Is this something you have seen other SS/SE guys doing on other makes?

As to the the deep skirted 350, I think too much faith is placed on that skirt. It's not like the caps are bolted into it or anything, like a lot of deep skirted blocks are.

I think cylinder head limitations have prevented any quantity of 600+ HP 350's from getting built, and I predict we will know a lot more about what they can and cannot take, once we get a good set of heads. Whether that will reveal a truly stronger block vs the 455, I don't know.

JW

 

Should be plenty of clearance for cam, especially with the new set of rods you sent but if not that wouldn't be a big deal and can easily be handled as well. A little bit of belt sander or bench grinder work and done. Here is an example;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWwFdRFvMzU

That little bit would change the balance minimally, not enough to make a difference to even worry about.

Yeah, that's what I thought, it will see some street duty. If it was for me, I would make sure it would be street friendly as well, no matter how hard its going to be on the rest of the drivetrain. :Brow:




Derek

 

I'm with you Jim, but here's the deal unlike the 455 where the water pump inlets are around the middle of the cylinder's coolant chambers the sbb 350 is at the bottom of the coolant chambers. Similar to the 455 that the frost plug side of the block goes down farther on an angle so the outside of each cylinder bank is about another 3/4" deeper with the sbb 350.

Not sure I like the idea of external plumbing either if I can get away without it, you didn't mention where the other side of that hose is getting the coolant from either? It does look like the thrust side of the block can be filled all the way to the bottom on each side though.(although the passenger side will be a bit challenging because the plugs would need to be in when filling that side, but that hamster is still running on its wheel uzzled

I haven't heard of any other make of engine doing it this way but they don't have to because most of them have the water pump inlets closer to the top of the cylinder coolant chambers so they don't have to. o No: Like a sbc for example that I have filled quite a few of those, the bottom of the water pump inlet is about 1" below the deck's surface giving basically the same amount of coolant volume than without any fill! That's what I'm trying to achieve here is close to the same amount of coolant flow volume than without the fill as I can get.

Coming back to the angle at the bottom of the cooling chambers, I am thinking of setting up the block so the fill will be 90* to that angle so the fill will be more like at least half way up the frost plug holes, will use plugs machined about an 1/8" or so above the centerline for filling. I know its a lot of messing around but it is what it is and will end up more like a 3/4" fill rather than a 1/2 fill. Which according to the sonic test the filling isn't really necessary at the .105" overbore but a little redundancy never hurt anything. Plus the entire thrust side will be supported with fill, win, win.

When you run into a block that is cracked in the cylinder, where does it usually crack? Is it on the thrust side typically or does it vary? Thanks.




Derek

 

I have seen them cracked everywhere, but typically it is in line with the pin, or about 45* either way.

That is where the block is always the thinnest. I believe they crack because the cylinder barrel is moving, and they simply crack at the thinnest part. Some blocks can be as thin as .060 in line with the pin. Not so much about force direction, as it is about stability. That's why the hard block works.


When sonic checking a 455, you start with the rear of number 6, and go from there. It can save you a lot of time.

JW

 

That makes sense. I'd never really considered it in terms of hoop stress but that's more or less what's going on there. The piston, being round would apply an even pressure on the thrust side and try to stretch the side walls between the thrust side and the coast side which would be resisting movement.

Seen in that light Jim, do you think thickness at the side wall could be more critical that at the thrust side?

Jim B