I'll be first to step up to the plate..Batavia was the last BCA show I'll ever attend

Hey Joe!

You should not entered your car in the 400 points show, as there is no way it would have scored any points, as it's a modified car, and quite a nice modified car, your way, your car, I'm concerned that you would think it would be something that should have been judged in the 400 point BCA deal, cause it isn't stock. It is a very nice Buick knock off, with the Nailhead in a '67 RIV, but someone, should have told you that it wasn't right to be in the judged class, you should have been in the Modified Class. Please don't cancel your BCA membership because of this, you'll miss all the great stories and parts for sale, and there probably won't be a BCA National in NY for a number of years. so you have to think about it. My car was in class, but display only, for some of the same reasons. I have only put one of my cars in the judging, and that was the 1986 GN, with 6K miles driven to the BCA NATS, in Kokomo, IN in 2002, and got 383 points out of 400, 3 points for metal flake in the paint, front clip, was factory made, and 3 points for dirt under the hood, was undercoated, and not able to clean, otherwise was a 400 point car. If you want to make a judged car for the BCA NATS, then I recommend you get a copy of the Judges' Manual, from the BCA Office at bcaOffice@buickclub.org rv

 

In the past on 2 occassions I helped judge using this 400 pt. system at our local chapter's Buick show. All I can say is when we judged the cars, we were no way as particular as these BCA guys are. I may be forgetting something, but we looked for cleanliness, originality, (10 points off for the wrong motor), and AC/Delco oil filters (we don't look at the air filter though), battery, plug wires, OE style hoses and belts, original paint color, correct wheels, and we were instructed to ignore the underside completely. Usually a point or two off for each of those things that were not correct. Chipped paint also lost points. Headers, custom wheels, wrong tires (like white letters), custom paint, non-stock interior, all got points deducted also. The trunk area also needed to be stock looking. Pitted chrome and dirty ash trays didn't matter unless it was a tie breaker. It was mostly a comprehensive kind of thing. And I certainly was friendly to the vehicle owners....I would have disqualified myself if I felt the desire to become cocky in any way, shape, or form.

When I entered my car in the nationals, I expected to be docked 10 points for the wrong motor. And I expected to be docked for whatever incorrect item the judges found, but I had hoped these guys being Buick people would not be out to screw me. So what if I lost points for the wrong motor.....I had also hoped the detail and originality of the rest of the car would make up for that, and perhaps I would score high enough for at least a bronze award. My car is not a driver, so the driver's class was out of the question for me.....as was the modified class.

The modified class adds points for modifications, I don't see how a car with only one major modification (engine) could possibly win anything in that class. My engine is completely stock really...there are no mods to my engine except for a mild cam and an electric choke. Get my point? o No:

In hindsight, had I known the BCA was so strict, I would have been in the driver's class instead. My beef with the BCA is that if they are going to concourse judge the cars, THEY SHOULD PROMOTE IT THAT WAY. :error:

Perhaps a 1,000 point system is what they should be using. And if they are going to judge the entries like trailered cars, then it should also be a trailered class. :bglasses:

 

Car Shows

I would take my restored 68 Corvette to a Buick event before even thinking of showing it at a Corvette event :laugh: AL.

 

This is what I was used to when it came to judging.

Not specifically Buick, but old cars just the same.
One of the first clubs to actually judge cars was the Classic Car Club of America. Their first judged event took place in 1953.
A far more fair system in my opinion. I had the honor of being a Judge a couple of times with this club.

It's a bit lengthy, but I think you will find it an interesting comparison.
Overview of CCCA Judging

Heres the home page. http://www.classiccarclub.org/

Of course even with this flexibility, there were alot of arguments and pissing matches over what was authentic and what was not.

The BCA can do what it wants, thats their perogitive. But it seems they are a bit unrealistic.
Again, that is just my opinion. I was a BCA & ROA member back in the 80's, but got turned off by some things that I won't go into here.

 

Joe, you didn't miss anything at the dinner, you saved yourself money. I paid 56.00 for myself and my girlfriend and we were the last table called to eat. Being last didn't bother us at all, but when we got up there and were told that they ran out of food (chicken and rolls) it really pi--ed me off. Neither one of us like pork. Then we sat for four hours waiting for the Archival class to be called, last again and i was given a plain piece of wood and told my medallion or what ever it is that you get will be sent to me. Yep, we will send it to you and you can stick it on your plain piece of wood. I'am not going to hold my breath that i will get my stick-ons.I for one will never attend another awards banquet. The people who put the one together for Batavia did a terrible job. Met a lot of nice people and saw a lot of very nice buicks so it wasn't a total loss. As far as your car goes, the h-ll with them. It was one of the nicest Riv's there.I'am really surprised they even knew that the nailhead didn't belong there.The ones that judged my car, tried to tell me i had an after-market exhaust on my riv. I don't know if they took any points off for it or not but they didn't have a clue as to what they were looking at. Just some of my thoughts on the weekend. Tom.

 

You deserve a refund for the banquet.........that sucks!

As for the exhaust, all I can say is.....Ah duh! ou: ou: What 35 year old car doesn't have an aftermarket exhaust???? Those cars couldn't keep a muffler longer than 2 years if you hermetically sealed it in a bag! And I know b/c my dad had his since I was too young to drive and I had one since I got my license! Even if you can find a NOS system, what good is that? Pay a million bucks for something that will rot and fall off the car even if you don't drive it??? What a joke!! If they're going to take off for that then they really should just go to a 1,000 point system. :spank:

At first I felt bad for flaming the BCA but now that I heard that I'm glad I did! I can only imagine what that guy with the car with the chebby 502 in it must have went through. :moonu:

 

I would buy a sticker with that on it! I think that's great!

 

I've never liked the shows only because they're a judged event, and I've never liked the idea of how you finish is based on someone else's opinion.

While I have a lot of respect for someone who does a perfect restoration, I don't like the fact that someone has this perfect car that never sees the road. Cars were meant to be driven in my eyes so building a perfect trailer queen seems like a waste to me.

Drive your car and enjoy it for what it is, that's my thought!

 

I think that a decent % of the cars being judged were driven to Batavia or they are driven to some extent. I drive mine, not as much as I would like to, but I did not buy it to be a "daily" driver. Its a toy :TU:

There were many judging teams at the BCA show and I think some were more lienent than others (the 2001 BCA meet was much tougher in my opinion o No: ).

As much as I did not like the judges "comments" at the BCA show I would much rather enter that type of show than a "peoples choice" or any type of "community" car show because these types of shows are won with flashy paint jobs and "neat" custom work. My car has none of that.. It is painted factory "yellow" with a stock engine compartment....

Restoring my car is the part of the hobby that I like best because I do not have the $ or skill to build a decent race car. Most of the resto work that my car needs is the type of work that I can do myself with minimal $ investment.

Should I feel bad that I "want" to put correct style hose clamps, etc.. on my car... No.......That is what I choose to do with "my" car.

This post is turning into a bashing party on those who like the "restoration" part of the hobby. We are not the enemy p

Joe has a beautiful Riv. and I hope someday to detail my GS as nicely as he has done and I have already taken a second place to him at a local Buick show (2003), but the year before I took 1st place. So you never know...

:TU:

 

My apolagies to all......bashing concourse resto's was certainly not my intention here. I'm bashing what I feel is a rediculas judging policy.

When you are in group of cars that are all competing for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place then nit-picking is fine. How else can the lesser cars be eliminated?

But when you are competing against yourself for a 400 pt. score, it seems ludicrous to me that you should lose points for such trivial things like aftermarket exhaust, a bug in the radiator or a small tear in an original convertible top. :error:

 

I think there is a fine line between the 400 point judging system and the Concours judging system. The 400 point system should be geared more toward the people that drive their cars (not just back them out of the garage) and allow for some "normal" wear and tear while still maintaining most "stock" originality.

Concours should be judged for the tear in the top, bug in the radiator and wrong type of exhaust system. Most of the cars in this class live a good part of their life on a trailer because it takes so much work to get them to that "factory" new condition (or better ). Then there are cars like Phil D's 1969 GS350 that is driven to all shows and always does well in this class.... :TU:

I knew what I was in for when being judged this year because I was also judged at the 2001 show. From that show I learned where I needed to make minor improvements (mostly just detail work) and it did help with this years judging. I did not like the comment from the one judge but I guess there are rude people in all walks of life even if they own a Buick.

:beer

 

Just so everyone knows,
The Concours class that I set up for the GSCA and BPG is basically the same thing as the 400 point system of the BCA, and to further explain it the BCA rules are a take off of the AACA rules.

At the time the hope was to develop something that would "raise" the level of the GSCA car restorations to the level of the BCA cars. That way when a GSCA car went to a BCA show it would not get "spanked". I gave it the name "Concours" in order to differentiate it from the judging format that was being talked about for the regular classes.

Since the rules were set up, the BCA has relaxed their rules a little, however I have not changed the GSCA rules, therefore currently the GSCA cars need to be a little "more" correct then they need to be for the other shows. This is a good thing as it makes it easier for the owners at the other shows.


I did not attend the BCA meet, but the 67 Riv with the nailhead motor, was definately in the wrong class. It should have been in the modified class. Once it was put in one of the "original classes" it's fate was pre-determined, and the judges did their duty.

I did this once at the GSCA Nats. I brought the X-Camino and everyone wanted me to put it in the show. I didn't want it judged but everyone was insistant, so I purposely put the car in the wrong class so it would not receive anything. They gave me a little grief, at first, because they knew what I was doing, but after I said it was either going in that class, or was staying in the parking lot, they agreed. That way everyone got to see it, and it did not interfere with anyone in my class.

I hope this helps answer a few questions here.
Duane

PS. Just to further disprove another myth, when I judge the cars I, and my team, do not take points off for over-restorations, nor do we take off for body gaps that are not quite perfect. I realize these cars were not perfect when they were built. We also allow ranges of paint gloss, for the same reason.

 

Duane..................I certainly was NOT in the wrong class. How is a car that is completely stock in every other aspect going to sucessfully compete in a MODIFIED class where you start with 0 and points are ADDED for modifications? Please explain that one to me! o No:

ou:

 

I don't know how the BCA set up the rules for the modified class, but I do know how your car would do in a "stock" class, and even if everything else was perfect, I don't think the car would get anything. A different engine is not a single part, it has valve covers, air cleaner, etc., and the number of points off would probably end up "killing" the car.

The reality of the situation is that maybe the BCA does not have a class for your car, and if that's the case I would be in the same boat that you are in. My car fits no class. My X-Camino looks pretty much stock, except for the body, therefore I would not get an award either, even in the modified class.

Now I built my car because I had to, I was basically "driven" to do it, I had no choice but get the idea out of my system. I did it for myself, as a design study car, and did not do it as a show car, therefore I accepted the fact that I would not ever get anything on the show field.

But, and I say but, that doesn't mean that everyone doesn't love it when they see it. That's the best award I could get, maybe you will need to be satisfied with that, like I am.
Duane

 

Your x-camino is very cool and well done. :TU: I know now how you must feel........that's why I will never again enter mine in a BCA show. I've noticed the AACA shows seem to be like that also. Perhaps they missed my motor when I won a first place award last month.

A friend of mine calls the 'vette guys "yups-r-us" :laugh: because of the fussy nonsense that has priced owning one to show nearly out of touch. After this experience I'm really starting to wonder about the direction the BCA has taken. ou:

 

Duane.........I should add that your car has a very obvious major modification, therefore your only choice is the modified class. Just like that '57 Buick truck, you have a Chevy-Buick body style that was never originally produced. My engine is only off by one year and the body style from '66 to '67 is nearly identical. I wonder how many '67-'69 full size cars are sporting 455's in place of the original 430? Are you saying they should be in a modified class too? o No:

 

Joe,
I understand where you are coming from, but remember this. The BCA is trying to accomodate the Modified cars. They were basically a club that was started for restored/original cars. It may take time to get the modified class rules together, I don't know much about it, but am guessing this is true.

Both our cars are more like street rods then modified/original cars.

Maybe instead of getting mad about it, you can offer some suggestions to help them. I am sure they would appreciate any help/suggestions you could offer. That's how I got suckered into developing the GSCA rules.

I also agree that the AACA probably missed the motor change, where the "Buick knowledgeable" people at the BCA caught it.

You should call me sometime so I can tell you how well I was treated the first time I brought the X-Camino to a BCA show.
Duane

 

Joe,
I also have the choice of putting it in with the regular 69-72 GS/Skylark class with a "Display Only" sticker on the windshield. Then it would be with it's brothers, but will receive no awards.

Also the difference between a 430-455 is not apparent visually, so how would the judges know what the displacement is. But I have taken points off for a 71 car that is sporting a 70 intake, as I could see that.
Duane

 

I can only imagine! :laugh:

Here's how the BCA responds to constructive criticism........Last year at our local chapter's show, the modified class was 1900 to present. If I recall correctly, it had over 50 entries all competing for 3 trophies. I sort of keep to myself, but I speak up when I think something is wrong. So I suggested they split things up a little better.......what did they do? This year there's no classes at all, no judging, all there is is 6 sponsor's awards and they think the attendance will break a record! :laugh:

 

That's my point........how is that a level playing field? o No: