MikeN If you are going to allow someone to sell something in your country it would be better to capture content and labor here than just the tariff on the import. That is why allowing them to produce in the US is a benefit to millions of workers. There are two main differences in the foreign automakers that produce cars in the US and the US based automakers. 1)New factories that are more efficient 2) Lower Total labor cost because the lack of legacy costs Now you can point to the politicians for the incentives they gave to get the factories as part of number 1, but you have to remember that states have also given incentives to the Detroit 3. The second item is can be broken into the facts that they negotiated with difference unions at startup wages and they did not have the retiree benefits that increase overhead. There has also been a design philosophy difference between foreign and domestic. Small and more efficient has been the calling card for the foreign automakers. SUV and Pickups the backbone of the US automakers. Ford, GM and Chrysler did not have the product breadth to keep sales up as the cost of fuel fluctuated. The contraction in their sales cost them dearly. They reduced sales/cash/profit has slowed new products which is what will insure their future. It is going to be a long and painful change for the workers and management at these companies and the US. We over value our labor. I find it hard to believe that 1 engineer in the US is worth 2 in Japan or 4 in China or 6 in India. The person on the assembly line in the US ($20/hr)isn't worth 20 Chinese or Indians($1/hr). What is going to happen is our standard of living is going to decrease and theirs will increase. We have become a bloated version of ourselves. In the 50s we had smaller houses, less toys, no cellphone bills and were a happy society. Now we gotta have stuff and will borrow money we don't have to buy it. If we return to what made us great we will again be able to hold our heads up and feel good about ourselves. Until then it will be pain, misery and finger pointing. ps - I have a Denali and an Impala. I just like a good arguement.
It really didn't have to be a US vs them with the Japanese. They were more than happy to work with us as a team rather than just take away our lifestyle. I was sent over to Hiroshima (by myself) by an exec in our division at Ford with the assignment of "figure out what they want, and sign my name to it". I worked inside Mazda Engineering first as a traveller then moved over to spend more time with my family. The Probe programs were a big success for Ford, but they did everything they could to undercut it so they could sell more Mustangs. The other programs where Mazda designed and developed the vehicles, then Ford built them in their own plants, were also successful, but would have been more so if Ford had stayed out of the program and let them do what they're good at, then transfer the Program for the process development, local sourcing, and production at Ford facilities with UAW labor. But.....not with the continual untested design changes to "cost reduce" the products after it was in production. Nothing wrong with manufacturing, sourcing, and processing improvements, but leave the tested and proven designs alone...... but they couldn't......... Too bad. Now the only people that can design and develop systems, components and overall vehicles are not in Dearborn, but at Mazda and Volvo at Sweden..... and they're talking about selling their stake in Mazda. R.I.P...... :ball:
Matt, very well stated, and I agree with everything you said. :TU: GM's progress with the 1989 Impact all electric, then the EV-1 in the 1990's, makes you wonder how much the oil companies had to do with Detroit's decision to build gas guzzling SUV's and trucks. If you ever get a chance to see the award winning documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car?", it's fascinating. Short term profits were the Big 3's goal. They drove their companies into the ground, with CEO's hoping to parachute out just before the plane crashed. Many CEO's and executives did, and now Americans are forced to pay the price. I often wonder how different things would have been if the "Supercar" had come to realization. With Toyota and Honda blocked out of that project, we may have a different landscape today. For those interested, this makes for some fascinating reading. I'm always surprised how many people don't even know (or remember) this project that we taxpayers flipped a $1 billion dollar bill for, and got nothing in return. It's a long article, so feel free to print it out, and read it at your leisure. http://www.chicagopriusgroup.com/resources/SuperCar.pdf
http://www.chicagopriusgroup.com/resources/SuperCar.pdf :eek2: o No: o No: o No: o No: o No: o No: o No: WTF does that AL GORE infomercial have to do with any of this thread? What a bunch of CHIT! Where would you like me to disassemble that guy's assertions first?
When you point your finger at someone else, there's 3 more pointing back at YOU... I'm all about throwing blame at the Big3, but...it's not like they've been *forcing* SUV's & trucks on us...they've simply been giving the consumers what they've been wanting, and for the past decade or so it's been all about SUV's & trucks (and still is). They coulda built all the electric or hybrid cars they wanted, but if they ain't selling, then what good are they doing? Heck, the Fed (and Hollywood) is so hung up on the beloved Asian automakers, but they, too, have been moving towards more SUV/truck production, and got generally *worse* mileage than their domestic counterparts. In fact, GM produces both a *full size* SUV & truck hybrid with all around mileage that's on par with a 4-cylinder Camry...
Wouldn't it be a good idea to disseminate the original post's assertions? Dave and I have gone through this already on another board. Why do we have to reduce ourselves to lies in order to protect Detroit?
All of the previos discussion points make for a great discussion but wouldn't it be better placed on a forum page related to the politics, economics and general commentary than on this forum? So can we get back to talking about running studded snow tires or something?
By most measures, Detroit automakers come out ahead. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration measures domestic-parts content ratings across the industry. Among the 58 models with ratings of 75 percent or higher, foreign-based automakers produce just eight. Conversely, Detroit automakers produce just 24 of the 140 models with domestic content ratings of 10 percent or less. The question I have is how content is measured. Is a transmission for example considered a "component" or is it broken down into the suppliers to that "component". A trans assembly or engine or axle typically have several suppliers. Castings, dampers, solonoids, friction products, etc etc etc all go into a transmission, but if it is imported as a "component" those suppliers are out.
I really don't care what the content is of a car - I think we know what's American and what's not. Buyers of Toyotas shouldn't fool themselves in thinking it's American, but they also shouldn't feel bad about their purchase or be on the receiving end of others' derision either.
Detroit built for many many years what the public wanted to drive.Unfortunatly every time the fuel prices spike the public bails to more econonical cars.Many people drive a long distance to work every day and make a trip to the store every time they need something instead of planning more and driving less.The big expensive SUVs and trucks like my crew cab dually 4x4 are much more profitable than a little car. The big 3 are a major part of this country its history ,the liniage of why many of us drive what we do often because our fathers and grandfathers drove a certain make also.The big three will always be an important part of the American fabric .I will never watch another nascar race I stopped when they let toyota in.The big three suported them for decades and the jerks at nascar let them buy their way in and gave them equal credability just when the big three needed all the help they could get.I will never own a foreign made or make car I do not beleive in supporting other countrys .I look at where things are made before I buy and when given a choise I buy American. I was in the UAW for 11 years and really have a disgust for most union actions.I was told to slow down I was making others look bad many times.The union mentality is not condusive to maximum productivity in almost any workplace.I have seen the people doing nothing ,faking sick,drunks or druggies only keeping a job becuase the union .They fight automation.A company that can't run efficently has a hard time making a profit .The $70 an hour auto worker is factored using wages, benifits,retirement,and other things.If they could can the useless,trouble makers, drunks and druggies it would be helpfull.If they didn't have to continue to pay workers a very high percentage of their wages long after their jobs are gone it would help.Unions served some needs but now they are a big part of the problem.I have seen plants close becuase the union would not work with management to keep a plant open.They would not talk about consessions and now nobody has a job there . Times change and if you don't change with them the times will pass you by. I don't give a crap if a foreign make car is built here the profits go out of this county and japan won't allow American cars to be shipped there in any quantity that is anything but a joke.Yea I know they provide jobs here but if people bought more American made cars the jobs would still be here.In my oppinion if you buy a foreign car you should be looked down on,but then you see a lot more obama stickers on them than American cars .:blast:
I think we should do our best to keep politics out of it - is this possible? Group hug? If you're going to look down upon someone for buying a foreign car, for goshsakes do it from a computer made in America!
Unfortunately, the electronics industry -- driven by the buying habits of Americans -- sold out long before Detroit did.
In my experience, one engineer in the US is worth that many elsewhere. But I might be a little biased. p Regardless, these comparisons are always tainted by the fact the cost of living is so much different in other countries. Why stop with India? Why not compare ourselves to Zimbabwe? THAT should be the new standard for comparison. We should all ascribe to live like the Zimbabweans! Ultimately, that is the fundamental problem with not buying American-made goods and services. I'm all for the freedom for us to spend our hard-earned dollars in whatever way we want. But we have to realize that every dollar we spend is a vote. If you buy a Chinese-made good because it's cheaper, you are voting for the Chinese way of life. You are saying that you want the world to live more like the Chinese and less like us. You want the American standard of living to decline while the Chinese standard of living rises -- until they meet in the middle somwhere. By then, you will have shifted your buying habits to Zimbabwe. Again we will decline and they will rise -- until someday the whole world shares the same standard of living. THAT is what your are voting for with your dollars. And I guarantee that the US will end up with the short end of the stick in this scenario. Addendum: When I say "Standard of Living," I'm talking about more than what kind of house you live in and how many cars you have. I'm also talking about the larger societal issues. When you choose the cheap Chinese-made good over American, you are saying that you are OK with the fact it was built with child labor, in a factory with completely inadequate safety, spewing toxic waste into the air and water in unimaginable quanitites. In fact, you are not only saying you are OK with that, you are saying you wish the US was more like that. Because becoming like that is the only way we can compete with them. This is one reason I am much more comfortable buying goods from Italy or other European nations than from China or India. This isn't some white guy being racist; it's me recognizing that I want to support nations and people with values similar to mine.
Are ya sure?... http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6234179/the-general-forum/japan-isnt-closed-to-imports/index.html
NAFTA is North American Free Trade Agreement , signed by clinton as was the most favoured nation trading status for china Both have really paid off for the American worker haven't they .
