FYI: the same could be said for drive shaft loops...NHRA doesn't require them *if* you are running street tires...!
I think this is the bigger issue. It's just plain, not "Pure Stock" anymore. Maybe it never was? I don't know. Everything evolves in racing it's man's innate pursuit of going faster and faster. Being a bit on the younger side, I may be ignorant, but I highly doubt any true, super-tuned pure stock muscle car could run much quicker than low 12s maybe high 11s. All this offset grinding, exotic low-lift valve jobs and such is NOT pure stock. Period. It might be considered stock within the NHRA Stock rule book but we all know that's not pure stock. I think if you come down hard on the guys doing such tricks you won't have much of an issue with cars needing roll bars. However, I firmly believe that a car running quicker than 11.49 needs a bar, be it a pure stocker, a ragged edge street racer or a strip-only race car. Looking stock doesn't mean you should be stupid. Seems to me the movers and shakers have pushed this genre of racing to its limits and as such the organizers and participants need to lay down a new set of rules to further the sport in it's current form or roll it over into it's own thing.
I was wondering if anyone else remembers the *when* & *why* of the NHRA's changing of their roll bar requirements? I do, but in case it escaped some of you, here it is, clipped from the NHRA's official '05 press release: In a move designed to encourage more street vehicles to compete on the quarter-mile, NHRA has revised its requirements for roll bars, SFI Spec clutches, driveshaft loops, driver restraints, and certain protective clothing. Beginning Jan. 1, 2005, a roll bar and an SFI 16.1 driver-restraint system will be mandatory on any vehicle running 11.49 or quicker and for convertibles running 13.49 or quicker. An SFI 3.2A/1 jacket will be mandatory for all drivers in vehicles running between 10.00 to 11.49 seconds. On any car running 11.49 or quicker, a flywheel and clutch meeting SFI Spec 1.1 or 1.2 and a flywheel shield meeting SFI Spec 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, or 9.1 will be mandatory. A driveshaft loop will be required on all cars running 13.99 or quicker and utilizing slicks, except vehicles equipped with street tires running 11.49 or slower. Y'all can read between the lines for yourselves, but *to me* that reads like "more cars=more $$$"...which would be inline with NHRA's rationale of sacrificing safety for revenue. So, without the onset a few years ago of showroom cars capable of 11s with the only modification being a semi-competent driver (think "ZO6 'Vettes", "Vipers", new GT500s, etc) the old 11.99 number would've still been in play...and we woulda crossed this bridge in Pure Stock a might bit earlier!
:rant: There seems to be a underlying movement to turn this class into "FAST LIGHT". The day rolls bars roll into this sport, I'm outta here! You can't seriously expect Rob Clary to put a bar in his real deal Yenko Camaro, or me put one in a real COPO car, and I'm sure you won't see 6 Pak Bob putting one in his Hemi Cuda. We need to inforce and clarify the rules we have! The guys offset grinding cranks and shimming lifters, etc need to be asked to leave. They can go start there own FAST Light class and leave us alone. It blows my mind that every year my ZL-1 that is suppose to be one of the kings of horsepower, barely make the "top 10" in the HP list. JJ and I are the only ones to make every event since this Stanton race started and I won't sit back and watch it get phucked up over a few peoples egos. If the cars keep going faster, we need to slow them down. That starts with stock cranks, rods lifters and cams, etc. When and if the cars keep going faster,start pulling away things like x pipes, over size tires etc, but only on the 11 second cars. Leave everyone else alone. When this NHRA spec thing came out, I was the first to call Dan and complain that we needed to make sure to include the rule, "not to exceed the factory compression ratio" No-one listened. Now look where we are!:blast: Rollbars........ou: Peter
The cars need roll bars because they are fast. They are not fast because they have roll bars. If we, as an organization have determined that these "supersonic cars" are going to be allowed to run in our "pure stock" race (and I believe we have beaten that horse to death in a different tread) then for gods sake lets, as an organization make sure these drivers are safe. I don't want to go to a funeral for one of our sports drivers because a roll bar didn't look "stock". I believe every driver out there needs at least a helmet (maybe that's the dad in me talking). It is what it is. Either slow 'em down or make them safe.
The SAFETY of the driver is not the issue here. Obviously, if your car is going fast enough for a bar/cage, then PLEASE do install one to save your life. The issue is as Jeff and Pete stated above. If your car requires a bar/cage then you need to move over to FAST and kick some butt there instead. I like the "FAST Light" title! :TU: If your car has a bar/cage than it is no longer "pure stock" in appearance or performance IMHO.
I agree with Pete. If "Pure Stock" cars are now running quick enuff to need a roll bar, there is something wrong with the definition of "Pure Stock". Since when is an X pipe pure stock, or an MSD? There are literally hundreds of tricks that can be done to make a car quicker and still pass pure stock tech. But then the car really isn't pure stock anymore. Maybe it is time to tighten up on some of the more obvious and easy to enforce deviations. ( Note: deviation in this case has nothing to do with Caseys donkey):Brow:
Hey Mr. FunnyPants, keep Pepe' out of this ..... when we bond, we are always in a "cage" ............... :laugh:
Yep. The folks that make way more HP at the rear wheels than the engine was even rated for is another one. Man, the OEMS would pay big for a driveline that makes power:laugh: Enforce the rules that are there.....for everyone......and roll bars should not be needed.
What would you say is a good 'bogey' for Advertised Flywheel HP vs. RWHP? Where is this line being crossed? o No:
You know what....I don't know with under rated engines and what not. I'd think if a person is making 75 to 100hp more at the wheels than advertised at the engine it would be cause to ponder. :laugh:
No doubt. But, if that's an issue someone has to draw a line... How much does the driver's ability to run a better number than the next guy in the same car affect the equation of 'too quick' vs 'stock quick'? Seat time and tuning ability is also in the mix. Twenty '69 Camaros can't all be equal in different hands. Maybe if we were all running new Corvettes equipped equally there would be little difference. The computer does it all. Just point and shoot. :sleep: But these old relics need more 'coaxing' and some people are just better at it. Or they only use their car for these events. As was stated before on this board, the guy who uses his car for ice cream runs, parades and Woodward may not get the same results he sees around him. Remember the ZL1 Camaro at Quaker City years ago? It could barely get out of the trailer. :shock:
I'd think it's more a symptom of the issue. The issue being "Pure Stock" cars needing roll bars. Driver ability is important, wringing out 75 to 100 RWHP more than advertised at the engine by just driving is awfully good though. :laugh:
It is kinda funny, I remember being at Tieman's shop in 1990 or so when the first meeting regarding a "Pure Stock" drag race was happening. Man, they didn't even want aftermarket guages or a non factory tach at first because it just wasn't stock. Now the need for roll bars is being discussed. ou: I know, I know......everything does nothing.....everything does nothing......
With maybe some exceptions, most everyone seems to agree: 1. The interpretation of the existing rules has become too loose (like some of the front ends on the faster cars!) 2. The NHRA rules have allowed for the line between FAST and P/S to become blurred (like the view out of an 11 second pass!) 3. The Genie can’t be put back in the bottle (like coming out of the closet with your mule and... hmm... never mind that one...) Now don’t bother asking, ‘cause I know you want to hear my view... In the spirit of what happened last September with the drivers’ meeting, maybe we should reach out to Dan and Bob to have another drivers’ meeting... no wait... a drivers’ summit! We can all fly in on our corporate jets and negotiate a bail out to help us return our cars to Pure Stock. After all, we’ve all learned a valuable lesson from the excesses of our past! No strings attached and no further intervention or supervision is necessary. Trust us. Let’s see, what else... oh, just for giggles, how about once we get our bailout (or even if we’re denied it) we actually go back to Pure Stock? Whoa... epiphany! No more X-pipes, no more welded mufflers with hollowed out or straight through cores, no more aftermarket ignition systems, and we'll use the factory advertised specifications: you know period correct and factory correct stuff. Even though we all know that “everything does nothing”, let’s just keep it simple... and maybe even fun! And because the event has grown into such a success, actually enforce the freakin’ rules now. Let drivers know right now that if you don’t comply, you’ll be put back on the trailer. Wait a minute, what about guys who don’t have a trailer? ... Darn! There’s the first loop hole in my plan... Anyway, don’t sweat the Genie, it’ll go back in the bottle. Guys are spending way more money each year on ways to defeat the rules than it’ll ever cost to put the factory stuff (that’s just collecting dust in their garage) back on the cars. Let there forever more be peace in the valley, boys.
Kill the genie and push the little bastard back in whether he likes it or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The new car's arent here yet ,so who cares. If the knife is sharp they'll die quick. Grumbling will subside! Enforce the rules we already have! A joke is a joke and that's what it's become!!!!! Rhonda stop typing that's not very nice. I was told to be politicly correct until after the party, so this isn't me typing it's rhonda. ya it's rhonda......
Not to rain on anyones parade, but IMO, this whole discussion about rollbars is a mute point. Not because I think they belong, but if in Bob and Dans shoes, no way would I make, let alone enforce, a rule outlawing a safety item, which a rollbar is. Talk about a liability risk! At any speed, a car hitting a fixed object, such as a concrete wall, can be deadly. There are other ways to slow the cars down besides implementing certain safety restrictions. Tom Clary
