reply Larry, I am running AC Delco R44TS's. They are gapped to .032 or so. When you say introduce a vaccum leak, do you mean uncap a vaccum fitting on the carb that was plugged, or uncap a hose from the manifold, or either? That in an interesting thought..... Rob
Rob, You can easily open the gap on those plugs to .045, the MSD will fire that easily. Uncap a vacuum fitting, either on the carb or manifold (not the PCV), and see how much RPM rises
The brake booster line needs to be directly to manifold vacuum. The base of the carb should have a 3/8 size vac. port, this is a good place to hook it to. Jim Burek
reply Ok guys here is whats new..... First off, I changed the oil ( 10w-40 ) with a new purolator filter. Noticed that the oild was pretty black for only having about 20 min running time on it... Also I looked closely at the oil draining out of the oil filter. It had very tiny metal particles in it, similiar to looking at metalic paint, very faint, but they only seemed to be in the filter and not the oild from the crankcase. I am told this is normal for a new engine as everything new breaks in. Note this is the third oild change that has been done with less than one hour running time. Next, I pulled all the plugs and re-gapped them to .045 as has been recomended by quite a few of you, as well as some non buick buddies that swear a MSD box can handle it. I gave the plugs a quick brush with a wire brush and they looked new, not cooked like the champions did. I fired the engine over, and it fired right up and ran strong. Then the choke plate closed, and the engine began to cough and the idle lowered, I immediatly jumped out and held it open, and it went back up, and ran better. I let it go, and it did the same thing. I am thinking of removing it. I also removed one of the caps, on the vaccum ports on the carb that was not being used. It did raise the idle a bit, but not much. I then shut the engine down and checked the crankcase to see if it smelled like gas which it did not. It didnt smell like anything. That is where I am at. I have taken some pics that I hope will help. Also there is a small black lever on the choke control that can be seen in the pics. When you hit it, it makes the choke stay open for a few seconds on startup, and then goes back to normal. I messed with that, but it didnt seem to help. One more thing....and feel free to laugh at this....I was looking in the shop, and found a video tape that came with my carb SHOWING how to dial in an adjust it...since I have a TV and VCR in the shop I popped it in and sat down to watch. It was at that time the VCR ate the tape. Shortly after I attacked it with a spare connecting rod I had laying around..... :rant: ...sorry I dont have a pic of that. Please keep the help coming guys.... :beer Rob :3gears:
reply If you look closely you can see the hose going from the brake booster to the L shaped fitting on the manifold, below the secondary bowl. You can barely see, but it is there, the PCV valve and the hose that comes off it, and takes a 90 degree turn into the vaccum port on the bottom of the carb.
Hello I am sorta new on this list but maybe i can throw in my two cents without getting slammed too hard... >Rob said... > I forgot to mention the ignition. I have a MSD 6AL and a mallory promaster coil. It almost seems as though the choke isnt working because the car doesnt want to start when its cold, but when its warm it fires right up. Its about 40 degrees this time of year here in jersey, and the other night I went to fire it up, and it was about 25 or so, and it blew a lot of black smoke and wouldnt stay started, >>>>>>>> Dont forget MSD says not to use a dial in digital timing light,,,just a reg cheapo light is best,the dial in lights can give the wrong readings due to multiple spark. Also who needs a choke? can ya tie open the choke?..give her a coupla pumps feather the pedal a moment after starting and away we go! Have you ever back fired her up threw the carb? Is there back fire protection for the power valves on that carb? Are there scewed up power valves leaking on the carb? Your previous comment on black smoke is very rich mixture or oil. >>>> Rob also said.... > OK guys, Ive pulled the plugs and they look like charcoal... Also Ive had a few guys ask if the oil smells like gas, and I didnt think it did the other day, but i just checked it now, and it does. What does all that mean? >>>>> The oil smelling like gas is not a good thang!! Gas will wash the walls of the cyl and pistons and rings will have no lube. Then the oil will get in the pan which will pump it up to the bearings and they wont get lube either! Your rings are either not broke in on the new engine yet or your floats or needles /seats on carb are screwed up. change oil(20-50 to set the rings) do not run with gasy smellin oil. I see little see threw windows on your carb,,is the level in the bowls at the bottom of the see threw plugs? Check on eng. idleing if the gas level in the bowls is creeping up? Also double check or plug all vac lines on the carb to make sure you dont have a leak,,,try starting her like that,then plug in each line one by one and see if the tone of engine changes,,if it does that line has a leak. If you can get her warmed and at idle cover the top of carb up with your hand and see if she dies or keeps running,,if she keeps running she is sucking air from somewhere?? the carb gasket..intake? If she dies as soon as you cover top of carb a vac leak maybe not your problem. Just my .02 Good luck Rob hope i helped and not confused things more :O Randy H. Maple Ridge B.C. 58 Olds 88 Tri carb/J2 72 Cutlass Convert 72 Cutlass(Buick430) 12.68@108 street tires cast iron intake.
Hi Rob I guess if i would have read the second page on this thread i would have seen that most of what i said was already said :O I will just go crawl back in my corner....>>> Wandy H. Maple Syrup B.C.
Couple of things to try: 1) Set that choke properly. What has worked for me is to begin with the engine stone cold. Don't try this if you have run the engine that day. Most electric chokes (Not familiar with BG carbs specifically...Yet) have three or four hold down screws on the side of them that hold the adjustment plate in position. Loosen these screws just enough to make the adjuster turn fairly easily with a screwdriver. Block the throttle open maybe 1/4 of WOT. Turn the adjuster to where the choke plate has just closed completely but has little or no tension holding it closed. Tighten the hold down screws but don't get carried away if the adjuster has plastic on it. This should be pretty close to where that choke needs to be at start up. Don't forget that you have the throttle blocked open before you restart the car. 2) You mentioned the air cleaner may be hitting the choke. Check to be sure the choke can open and close freely. If it doesn't that could be holding your choke partially closed. Whatever is in the way or is blocking the mechanism should be corrected. Be sure that any linkage moves freely as well as checking the choke plate itself. 3) Since you have a vacuum secondary carb and the signal used to open the secondaries only operates under the right conditions (not just due to low manifold vacuum) you can be sure this is not part of the problem. 4) You will probably want to be dead sure what your idle vacuum is. Do BG carbs use Power valves like Holleys? I don't think they do but if it does have one, this can trip you up too if the power valve isn't correct for your combo. 5) How high are the floats set in your fuel bowls? This can affect the mixture somewhat though probably not enough to be the sole cause of your problems. 6) With the engine OFF and the float bowls full of fuel, move the throttle via the cable or linkage just a little to open the throttle while you are looking down the primaries. You should see some fuel squirting into the carb throats pretty much as soon as the throttle moves. If not, there is a problem with the accelerator pump giving the initial shot. Isn't this FUN! Phil
Randy, It's interesting that you brought this up. I inquired of MSD about this issue. They said the light may not read correctly. I have 3 timing lights. An old Sears standard inductive pickup light, a new Sears dial back light, and a Snap-On digital dial back light. All 3 lights agree when I compare them on my GS. With the plain light, I use the 30* mark I made on my balancer. All 3 lights agree, so some lights may work just fine with the MSD boxes. Rob, Sounds to me like all you need to do is adjust the choke correctly. Unless your air cleaner is restricting choke movement, your problem is adjustment related. That black round housing that is held down by 3 screws, can be rotated to set the choke richer or leaner. Often the directions for lean and rich are written in the plastic of the choke cover. What you are doing when you rotate the housing is varying the thermostatic spring pressure. Adjust it like Phil described.
Info Picture OK Blk4spd I made some comments on your picture and will try to upload it so that you can see what I was talking about in my post. The Idle Mixture screws are fairly easy to adjust though I would get that choke adjusted and the car warmed up before making any changes to the idle circuit. Also remember that making changes in the idle mixture screws does not affect full throttle or cruise mixtures. When I make changes here, I turn the screws in until the idle speed changes on a tachometer, then I turn them out 1/4 turn at a time until it smooths out again. Then continue to turn them out, counting the turns until the idle changes again. Turn it back in 1/2 the number of turns it took coming out and that should get you close. The Float Sight Glass shows you just how much fuel is in the float bowl. If the thin line in the glass in the picture actually is the fuel level, I'd say it's too high. Fuel should just appear on the bottom of the glass at idle when you lean on the fender on that side, rather than being half way up the hole. This adjustment is done with the engine running at idle. Move the float level down in small increments for each change. Note that the fuel level won't change right away. You need to either wait for it to stabilize or give the engine a couple of easy revs to drop the float more quickly. In any case, be sure to let the level stabilize before you make the next change. I circled and labled the hold down screws for the choke housing. Loosen them slightly and make the adjustments as described in my last post. It is true that you can run without a choke. I did just that with a 68 Riv and Holley 4bbl for a couple of years. Of course, I lived in So. Cal. at the time and it never really got that cold. Two pumps of the pedal and hit the key. Never failed when it was cold. Feather the gas for about a minute and then it was fine. If you live where it's really cold, it may be a bit more involved. Let us know what happens.
reply Im not sure what you mean by seat the rings, but I know its a buick shop. I took a little on faith that they were doing it the right way. I am running a holley electric ( red pump..I believe a contstant 7 gph) you are not confusing me...please keep the help coming!!!!! Thanks, Rob
If i could just interject something....If you read the MSD instructions, they suggest spark plug gap be set at .050-.060 for engines up to 10.5-1 compression. Re-gapping the plugs to the MSD recommendation should be a big help in cleaning up the idle. I believe he said that the car ran better going from .035 to .045
Guys this stuff is great!!!!! I really appreciate the visual aids......also jason, you are right about that, im gonna re-gap them and try again. You are right I did see an improvement in increasing the gap. I have been told that because the MSD puts out so much spark, and with such a small gap that that may have fried my plugs. Also somone had mentioned using 20w-50 oil for ring break in. I have been using 10w-40 so far. What are all of your thoughts on this? Thanks again guys this stuff is great!!!! Rob
reply Ok...heres whats new.. I gapped the plugs to .060 and then .050 and the result was the same. It ran like crap. I am back to .045 and its much better. I uncapped the vac. hose from the brake booster to the manifold while the engine was running and the idle did raise a bit, not a ton, but enough to notice. I placed the vac. gauge on, and as suspected im pulling between 6-7in out of that port (as larry pointed out, not enough to assist the brakes). I disconnected the choke all together, and with the plugs gapped at .045 it ran well. No hesitation, no coughing. However I noticed this matierial coming out of the exhaust pipes and immediatly shut the motor down. Its a dark liquid, doesnt really have an odor, I dont think its oil...it seems to be dirty water. Not much came out, maybe 40 or 50 droplets...when I touched iy, and looked at my hands it seemed to have a brown tint to it. The engine wasnt running very long and the pipes appeared to just be getting warm. I suppose it could be condensation. Its got me concerned. Any thoughts? Also, I checked and the crankcase still does not smell of oil, and the plugs are still not burned. No black smoke, just a hint of white smoke, not much, and the exhaust doesnt stink like it used to. Please keep all the help coming, Rob ou:
Rob, That's condensation, water mixed with carbon and rust. Completely normal. The pipes get hot, when you shut the motor, the pipes cool, and water condenses inside. Next time you start the engine, out it comes. Vacuum level is low. First thing I would look for is a vacuum leak. If none is found, try advancing the initial timing while watching the vacuum gauge. Does the vacuum increase. I can't remember if you have a timing light. If not get one. If you want to tune your engine, it's a necessity. Next, I would want to know if your cam was degeed in, and if so where was it installed. That can have an effect on how much vacuum an engine makes at idle.
One of the by products of combustion is a slight amount of water. You also can get condensation in the pipes and engine. The amount of water coming out you are describing is normal on a cold engine.
reply Ok here is a pic of what it looked like....I just went out there now, and it seems as though it was soot and water together. When I swiped my finger along the jackstand it spashed this stuff all over and looked at it it was like toner from a photo copier....soot Im guessing. I had a buddy tell me that if a little water vapor comes out while warming up its ok, but not if it keeps doing it. It is about 40 degrees tonight, and im sure once those pipes started getting warm they were producing some condensation. I just get a little nervous since I had a friend that was revving his engine once, and oil was spashing out the tailpipe. I dont remember the cause, but I remmeber it meant a ruined engine.....Just me worrying again. Please keep the input coming.... Rob :beer :3gears: (not encouraging drinking and driving here)..... :af:
reply Jim, I wouldnt say that it has a blueish tint to it...and its pretty faint....It doesnt have a real bad odor to it, but I really havent had the engine running for more that 5 minutes or so at a time, so I cant really tell. Its getting a little cold here so that could be part of it as well.
Good News! I just saved a ton of money on my car insurance! :laugh: Seriously, based on the picture you posted the 'smoke' you are seeing is simply condensation from the exhaust system with some soot mixed in. I would be more suprised if you DIDN'T have this particularly since it is getting cold there. Think about this. Since the engine was running pig rich, there is going to be a substantial amount of extra soot deposited throughout the exhaust system. When you start the engine and the condensation comes out the pipes, it will be washing some of this soot off the inside of the manifolds/headers, pipes and mufflers. It will be deposited on the ground or whatever is under and around the end of the exhaust pipes including your bumper, chassis and paint. Not as much as on the ground but it will be there. If the engine is now running much better than it was before you made the repairs and changes you have talked about, I'd take it out and drive it easy for a couple of hundred miles then change the oil again, assuming no other issues come up. You might want to take it to someone that has an exhaust gas analyzer or something that can help you/them adjust the mixture.
