Bill, when you get that pump apart you will want to check for any galling taking place i.e. idler gear bore or idler gear shaft, main drive gear shaft or its bore in the alumimun cover, and of course the gear pocket itself. You may want to also check the main gear shaft for straightness (runout). Larry
Soooo... 16 will getcha 20 LOL. Used the old trusty damper puller and with just a little effort the unit slid right off. Had to finish unbolting the timing chest and the PO's expertise reared its ugly head, AGAIN with the four pan rail bolts from underneath. What an A$$HOLE! Got down to the worn out stock flat timing chain and found a steel cam gear which was a good thing. After the chain was off, came the crank gear with a small puller; it was off and in hand. So now, just for your amusement and when you talk tech stuff with another expert, you can sound really sharp and tell them that the damper keyway does in fact point to TDC on No. 1 cylinder. (the marks are off a little from working), but that's good for reference! The HEI driven gear and cam drive gear are serviceable, and I would guess its a stock smog cam. I really don't need anything more than reliable. The damper seems a little discombobulated with the rubber looking smooshed as tho it was apart and pressed back together. Please tell me that isn't so! I really don't feel like pulling the motor out for a balance job... Ill end up being upside down in it then. It ran good with zero vibration. It looks for now like Ill also be using the spare timing chest/oil pump Ive got. HEY BLUEZILLA !!!! Can a rubber seal be retro-fitted in place of a rope seal? I haven't cleaned anything yet, so nothing has been positively I.D.'d. If anyone sees anything funky here SING OUT. I'm not the expert, but I am my own worst judge haha. So far it looks like Gaskets, Chain set, oil pump kit, front seal, and probably a new (not rebuilt) waterpump. Maybe a fan clutch as well as the OEM unit doesn't seem very stiff (viscous). Get the gerbil going; theres a bunch of pics coming up... ws And then for the grand finale... watch closely as this is a trade secret! [video=youtube;LtWYSqiuJ7s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtWYSqiuJ7s[/video]
Man, you must live a charmed life. I can't believe that your gears have not been ruined yet. The only thing I can think of is that when the pump is not moving something gets out of alignment with the gears and that is why you can't turn it with a screwdriver. As soon as the distributer spins it a rotations or so it realigns and is ok. I'm amazed because I've ruined gears just from cold starts and too much rpm too soon. Sheared pins and ruined gears because of the old school Kenne-Bell OP too. I can't see that being too tight endplay because that would easily ruin the gears plus after so many miles add up the gears would self clearance themselves in the aluminum housing or into the oil filter housing and wouldn't be that tight by now. When the pump deadheads hydraulically it is has a mushy feeling to the screwdriver driving it. It is hard to turn forward and actually will bounce backwards. Something's amiss and it will be interesting to see what it looks like inside that pump. I can't wait to see the pics. TA sells front seals to replace the rope. The metal ring in the housing has to be removed but it is no biggy. I'd use what ever oil pump housing has the least scoring in it for best pressure. You don't need to rebalance the engine when you replace a stock damper. All you have to do is transfer any weight slugs that fill the holes in your original one to the new one. I live near Manheim which is over 1.75 hours to Pleasant Valley in one direction and 1.25 hours the other way to New Oxford.
Thanks Mike... I figgered the only way to show how tight it is was to do a video. Ill have both covers in the parts washer today and apart for this afternoons round of pics. No matter is the problem, I'm still surprised it didn't but the distributor or at least the pin, gears not withstanding! I lost a fuel pump in my 2000 Silverado in Pleasant Valley and have a good pal in New Oxford. He lives on the family farm owned since before the revolutionary war... Then he got divorced. ou: I have a feeling it had to be liquidated. :ball::ball: ws
Interesting Bill, I have a couple questions. Was there an oil slinger in place between the Damper/Balancer and the crank gear? In picture #6, the inside timing cover looks to have some type of debris in the oil suction cavity or is that just my interpretation of the picture? When you knock the oem rope seal retainer out you should trim down the crimps on the cover so the new seal can be installed correctly. Larry
Hey Larry... yes, there was a deflector between the crank gear and case on both covers, the spare coming off the long block you came up here to get. On pic #6, I cant tell myself if theres junk (gasket dope) or not, but I do know its gone now. That was on the spare cover and the passage in my block appears clear but will clean THOUROUGHLY! I haven't gotten to the seal yet, but I'm pretty sure that will be self explanatory once I get to it. I jst wanted to be sure a rubber (vernacular!) was available; the same as for the rear main. Rubber vs. rope! So today was wash, clean and a cursory inspection on the two covers and oil pumps. For the sake of not getting confused, I am going to call my "tight" running take out (the red one), PUMP "A". The spare is identical which we will call PUMP "B". After cleaning it was discovered to be a blue motor pump anyway, so why not? Was the long block you got from me red or blue (originally)? After cleaning, pump A, loosening the 5 bolts on the filter end proved two things; too skinny of a gasket, and by loosening the bolts 1/4 turn, I was able to turn the bastard with a screw driver with little effort, and then by fingers. On a scale of 1-10, pump A is a 8-9. I did have to file the drive slot to get it through the body bushing (nicked from attempts to turn it), and some minimal wear on the pump "impeller well" as well. Pump B was able to turn by fingers from the git-go. The drive shaft was a little varnished from poor mtce. but cleaned right up with a scotch brite to disassemble. The internal on a 1-10 scale were <1. UNACCEPTABLE. So follow with me here as we journey to a place of neither sight nor sound; the signpost up ahead; The Twilight Zone... ws Pump A and B before and after cleaning. Pump A internals.
Didn't want the server to blow a fuse so heres Pump B with a broken cap screw no less...Look at them freakin' gears woodja??? ws On Pump A, the tight one, the only real evidence of foul play was a lightly touched cam button in the housing. Couldn't even get a fingernail on it! So as far as I'm concerned, Pump A has the good stuff and all it really needs is a gasket set and a shim set with a front oil seal. Any recommended methods of polishing the bottom of the well or will I need to do that by hand like a Model T Ford? FWIW, rebuilding a T engine is a lot of Prussian blue and hand scraping to fit so I'm not opposed to that either LOL...Oh, and a new HEI gear pin! Mike was right, I was blessed. Probably have a total of 2000 generous miles on it and didn't have it give me an oil pressure failure! Bill in Sunny but chilly Two Rivers.
Looks as though the problem was just as expected. If you plan on using a GM Timing Cover you may want to do a few simple modifications to the cover to improve oiling. If you can't find a write up on the forum, you can give me a call at the shop and I'll go over the mods with you. It's pretty easy as Mike from TA walked me through it over the phone 25 years ago (before the internet). Larry
Hey Pal... expect a call this morning, that is if you can spare a few minutes. You've been great and I hate to bug you, but I would like to order parts today some time. I think I am going with Pump A and pull the Hi-Po plates off and get a new gear set along with the mylar spacer set from T/A. They recommend NOT using that kit for average street condition driving causing cam bearing wear etc like we discussed... I wonder why LOL... Any thoughts on the gear "well" facing job? The +1/4" HVHP gears are like new and can probably be used to lap a new sealing face in the well. The filter mounting plate can be cleaned up with fine emery on my table saw table. I thought Buick used to offer an overhaul kit with a new steel plate that would cover those score marks. Seems like a poor design for such a critical point as far as wear is concerned. I sure don't wanna buy a whole new cover for a few scratches, and oil pressure was very satisfactory with the kit installed and binding as it were. I'm probably going with a stock flat chain to prevent any fuel pump arm rubbing as well. OEM stuff does well for me as I am not racing per se. If you want the kit its yours for that 1000 hp monster Tomahawk motor... :bglasses: ws
Bill, the Melling P20I Thrust Plate (wear plate) is used to provide a new surface for the bottom of the gears to run on,...(Unless that's what you mean by "The Filter Mounting Plate"). You won't have to do any resurfacing of the filter housing other than to check for and remove any burrs so the plate and gasket fit flat. TA sells that plate in either a standard or modified form,.... though if you plan on modifying your timing cover yourself then you should be able to do this mod also. Larry
I'm just thinking about going all stock... it sufficed all those years (ago). So do I use the bottom plate from the kit with new gears(stock short ones) and play with gasket clearances? Hows about a faceplate for the gear pocket? You mentioned a modification to the timing chest. Can you elaborate here or is that best done by phone? Bill
You already have a thrust plate. That is what is stuck to the other side of 1/4" spacer in picture 5. All you need is a fresh set of gears and the gasket shim kit. Amazingly enough the pocket of "A" looks good. I wouldn't worry about cleaning up the bottom of the well, it is what it is. There's no way to make it flat again. As far as the other mods go here's some from the Buick Performance site: http://www.buickperformanceclub.com/OilingMods.htm All in all if you've been getting by with what you had I wouldn't get too worried about extra mods but they never hurt.
I hafta agree with you Mike... I got pretty lucky! I was able to source most of the stuff locally to save shipping, but will call T/A tomorrow and order the mylar shim kit. I looked at your mods link and think that may be a worthwhile improvement to the OEM design, especially if theres any flashing from casting of other obvious flaws. I did have my local guy order a chain and a chain with gears to verify they aren't from the china man. He doesn't have a problem getting stuff and returning it FWIW... I did mention a Cloyes set which he couldn't find. A little more research on my part found the Cloyes parts sold under the Edlebrock Performer moniker. Tomorrow is an ICE DAY around here followed by a January thaw. That means more cleaning, prepping and painting stuff getting it ready for re-assembly. Being as anal (haha) as I am, theres a possibility that I may make a polishing slug on my lathe to lap the pump well somewhat smooth again. By that I mean something to use by hand to only take down any grotesquely high spots if any are apparent. If I was still at work, Id set it up on the Bridgeport and take about .003-.005" off and make up for that with a gasket/spacer. I really don't think its that bad though. Its too bad no one makes a .125" plate for both ends like the HVHP set uses, ya know? You can take the man out of the machinist but you cant take the machinist out of the man. ws
Maybe we're getting our terms messed up but the plate attached to the one end of the HV 1/4" spacer plate IS a thrust plate and is a stand alone piece added to the HV pump plate. It should separate from the 1/4" spacer and you can reuse it because it doesn't look worn at all. Maybe you understood this and I'm just confused by the terminology.
In a word; YES. Ill need to make sure that the aluminum filter mounting plate (pump bottom) is flat enough to take the gasket and thrust plate and not leak. The thrust plate is almost perfect. The end clearance on the gears will be obtained with the mylar shims. I'm pretty good at cleaning and making stuff flat. I hate oil leaks! All kidding aside, I was raised around Model T fords. My dad had a book called 'Gettem Home. When stuff was so worn out the farmers during the depression had to make stuff work. Wrapping bailing wire around pistons for rings, and using a piece of leather belt for a rod bearing insert to name a few. Bill in old Two rivers.
Picked up all my stuff today, just waiting on the shim kit and a neoprene front seal. Spent about 3 hours going over the whole cover, cleaning and scraping old gaskets, drilling out cruddy mounting holes and running a tap though all the threaded stuff. Finished up with a good brakeclean washing and a coat of zinc primer followed by 2-3 coats of red. The "Blue" pics are contact areas with the new gears. Not bolted together but merely spun in situ. The old HVHP gears provided me with 1/2 of this... ws
I was just wondering how valve lapping compound would do at the bottom of the oil pump cavity to "lap in" the gears to the housing.
That's what I was referring to in #34 above. If I spun a hardwood facing tool on the lathe, I could lap the top pretty easy by hand. Id make the O.D. a nice fit on the bore and keep it nice and straight. I can also take the HVHP gears which are like new and do the same. Like only a drop or two of Clover brand "special Navy grade" compound. Its really nothing more than a lap, a clean-up and a blue check. I may also have a 1-1/2" (?) O.D. stone to do by hand as well. Its not too bad, but better would be gooder. ws
I had a good LAP today; What did DJT say to BHO? YER FIRED. Me?? IM FRIED After thinking it over for 24 hours, I decided to take a few swipes with some Clover #4 lapping compound. I put a DAB on each HVHP gear since they still look like new and didn't want to compromise the new set I just bought. I set each gear in its' respective socket and with a used sock on my hand, I made a 1/4 turn, back and forth a few times, lifted and repeated for one full revolution on each gear. Heres the results... I was also waiting for the mylar shim kit (and front seal) from T/A, but after taking my measurements I found out I wont need them. The book calls out for a minimum of the gears being .002" tall plus the gasket. Due to gasket cleaning over the years and maybe a tad from the lapping, I was .0015 tall. So with a .006 gasket put me at almost .005". The book calls for .002-.008 so I am golden. Packed with Vaseline (felt like I was in 'Frisco haha...) and called it a day. Feel pretty good about this one. Turns nice with some oil in it, so I pulled it apart, cleaned it, packed it and used #2 permatex (gads how I hate that stuff!) to seal it with a FILM applied with an ice pick and wiped clean with rubbing alcohol. The relief valve required a spring that was 7/16 above the frame which gives a 40# release. Sound about right? Its right outa the book. ws
