The gear faces should be .002-.006 above the gasket surface of the timing cover. If your gears extend .0015, then the pocket is worn too deep according to the chassis manual. .002-.003 is the preferred end clearance. The end clearance is achieved by the gasket. I'd try the .003 mylar gasket and see if it binds. If so, then the the .002 and the .0015 mylars used together would be my next choice.
I'm kind of following this thread Bill. Only to learn, because I can restore stuff very well, but mechanical stuff...machinist stuff...not so much! I'm tempted to pull my cover just to look around. I've done some research, I'm wondering if you know about the hole that used to be cross-drilled through the one gear. I know earlier Melling gears were pre-drilled. I know some peeps recommend it. I don't know if it's a big deal, but wanted to mention it.
What Larry said about .002-.003. You don't want extra clearance even though the manual says it is ok. Remember they are also the guys that say 5 lbs of idle pressure is "OK". You can try it and with your special kind of luck you may be good.(I still can't believe your dist. gear wasn't toast.) I'd wait for the shim kit and get it right. On my current engine I was seeing what I felt was too much pressure up at the top end at the track so I added .002" of extra clearance but I'm running a TA cover. I was at 80+ and it took 10 lbs out of it to the mid 70's.
Hey Frank... thanks for following along! I was unaware of cross drilling the idler gear (to lube the stub shaft?) but I did take a real fine India stone to swipe the gear faces to check for burrs and they felt like they were case or induction hardened. In this case the engine is a 1975 with an HEI and headers, but it does run surprisingly well. I am trying to stay pretty much stock; it seemed to work for Detroit for a lot of motors! I guess theres no harm in trying the mylar gaskets for an exact fit. The .002 feeler was a squeeze and the .0015 entered fine. The gasket did MIC at .006 so that tells me .0045. Hopefully the T/A stuff will be here tomorrow and I can give it a try. As hard as it was to turn, I'm surprised it didn't bust the end of the cam off LOL... FWIW... The real book, DDAD 8-71 overhaul manual states that at least 1-2lbs of oil pressure is required per 100 rpm of loaded bearing. So at 2300 rpm, 23-46 lbs is adequate. Actually 80 can wash out a bearing at speed. JMHO, and Detroits. Beer beeper is going off. Its in the freezer with a frosty glass for 23 minutes. Sam Adams Coffee stout packed with nitrogen. No head but a Coooold slushy! :eek2: ws
Bill, If you REALLY want to know your gear end clearance you can install the gears (totally dry), install the gasket you have calculated to be correct, bolt on your thrust-plate-only (tight to cover). Now you can use a dial indicator set right through the pressure relief opening in the thrust plate to check both gears. Check main drive gear by moving the shaft up and down,... moving the drive gear up and down in the pocket by hand, and check the idler gear by sliding a small hook tool through the slot to pull the idler up to the plate tight,...then with your indicator zero on the gear, remove the hook tool and push the gear back into the pocket reading the indicator,....Easy-And-Accurate. I never trust measuring any composition gasket as its dimension will change when torqued. I don't set my gears with any more than .0015 total end clearance. There should be no binding at all. If there are tight spots remove them with a fine honing stone. I NEVER pack anything in ANY oil pumps,...Buick, Chevy, Pontiac,... etc., though I know that many folks do and have success. I make priming tools from old distributors, oil up the pump gears, assemble/install, and run them with a 1/2" drive drill to pressurize the system. I just grabbed an oil pump, timing cover, and thrust plate off the shelf to take this picture,... as the plate is not bolted in place. The pen is pointing where you should access the gears with your dial indicator. Hope this helps you,.. as always just call me if you want any further assistance. Larry
That's a good little trick... I guess Ill be pulling it apart after all, even tho its packed solid with K-Y, ah, er OOPS, Vaseline and all final assembled with perma-friggin-tex LOL. As in above, per the book, I checked with feelers and the .002 was tight and the .0015 was loose, so I was splitting that and calling it .00175. That would leave me with.00425 with the composition gasket at .006. You really think .003 would make a huge difference? I did use an indicator on the drive end of the shaft but it was a tad hard to manage with a mag base and a steel bench with an aluminum cover. I like your approach better. On the gasket material... regular paper or shirt board gaskets will squeeze, but material like garlock or Crown Cork and seal, and such are (should) supposed to maintain their tolerance + or - 5%. I was just jumping the gun and didn't want to wait for the T/A set. Now I'm busted and will HAVE TO do it right! LOL. On the relief spring... As you mentioned there are two styles of bottom covers. I have "B" style (earlier, see pics above) and the paperwork with the gear set requires 7/16 "above the deck" to get a 60lb relief. The white spring gave me 9/16 (too tight?) and the orange spring gave me a perfect 7/16 with the new "slug" included in the kit. Other variables held the pressure down to 40 psi which I felt was a bit too loose. Whatcha think? I do have a nice drive/priming rod I made that runs at speed with a 20 volt cordless drill AND a mechanical gage. You wouldn't believe it, but that's what I used on pumping out boat oil on the 283s that were OEM... easy peezy! Those had early Corvette mechanical tach drives with a separate Prestolite distributors mounted off a Chris Craft housing. NO timing involved! Now with the 454s, I warm them up, and take a pressure tap off the filter housing with a hose to a bucket. Start 'em and let them idle till they spit. Been doing that for 25 years! It even clears the horizontal mounted oil filters for very little mess in about 15 seconds for 6 quarts. WHEW... time for some coffee.. It was 0400hrs when I started this post! ws
Granted... I would prefer to use an anaerobic sealant but was advised against it. I use it pretty much exclusively and get no leaks, but as in the event of taking this pump apart for the 7th time, correctable damage would be bound to occur. This will be the last time and I am gonna stick with my tried and true method of spray glue and a film of never seize. Assemblies are usually able to be separated and re-used. The secret of any sealer (some guys use RTV until it gushes out; or IN) is to use as little as possible. Yesterday the P-Tex was applied with an ice pick and spread down to maybe a few thousandths and then squeezed tight. The gaskets today are gonna be gonners, but I did order extras.. ws
I like to use the TA 1502 Adjustable Oil Pressure Regulator when setting up the Buick oil pumps,.... V6 & V8s. Then you can dial in your desired high pressure relief point. It's only $20.00 and then it takes the guess work out. If you choose not to, then try out the springs you have and keep in the spring that satisfies your needs. Did you peform any of the mods from the link in post 33? They are simple and worth while as long as everything is apart. Larry
As we discussed yesterday, I'm gonna stick with a pretty stock oiling system. For the other followers, this is what happened; Started off by pulling the pump apart yet one more time. The P-Tex hadn't cured so it and the gaskets came off (95%) with a razor blade. Nothing will cut that stuff other than isopropyl alcohol. So all cleaned and de-Vaseline-ized I donned the surgical scrubs for some more exploratory surgery. I felt like I was installing O rings in the space shuttle (!). Set the cleaned gears back into the housing and took a depth MIC reading instead of feelers this time. Still came up about .0015 to .00175 tall. As I was reaching this milestone, I checked the mail and sure as heck, the kit from T/A shows up. BINGO! So me being me, I take all the shims one by one and MIC them. For the space shuttle they are "close". I installed a .003 mylar shim in place and realized since the PO installed the HVHP pump, the thrust plate was doweled with 1/8" roll pins. The mylar pcs. needed to be punched accordingly and I used a belt punch hole maker to cut the holes. Delicate stuff at .003"! Bolted the bare, clean thrust plate on with 6 short bolts and used Larry's (Bluezilla) dial indicator check for a positive end play reading of .0015". Perfect! Twisted pump with my fingers. I installed the oil filter cover and since the books says 10 ft. lbs on the screws, I worked my way up. It was good until the last round when the bastard locked up tighter that a pucker string. Pulled it apart again and installed a .005 shim this time. Its .0005" too much but I refuse to stack shims. The .005 shim solved the problem with one minor exception. The PO mustve used a 1/2 breaker bar to tighten those 1/4-20 cap screws. Two of them had the threads pulled out (stripped) which resulted in one taking a longer bolt with a nut on top ground to clear the casing, and another needed a stud made so it would run in 100% into a blind hole, got locktighted in place and nutted. I hate reverse engineering PO's fork-ups. All snugged up with a new T/A front seal, black gasket eliminator and I am done so stick a fork in me! The T/A seal is only 1/4" tall and the timing chest pocket is 3/8. Hope the damper runs in the right position. Theres a knurl on the damper hub that slings oil up onto the timing chain and distributor gear. Coffee time. ws
Looks good Bill! Yeah...I'm learning stuff, too. I was wondering why the dampers were knurled like that. I've seen similar problems with my car...stripped holes, wrong fasteners, wood screws, epoxy repairs, modified length bolts, extra washers...etc. My previous owner also had like "gorilla syndrome" or some thing like that. Everything was bolted as tight as it could be, most things way over-tightened. I feel your pain fixing other's mistakes. Reverse engineering, yup...that's what it is!
The ultimate test will be when you get everything together, drive the car, and get everything as hot as it will get. Hoping for the best Bill.:TU:
Thanks guys! Yeah, if this were an 800 HP monster motor, things would've been different. Personally, I'd have helicoiled everything and used studs, especially in aluminum. Tis what it tis'. So on to today: Got out in shop "B" today to get things ready to go together. Two shops is ruff. I have triplicates of almost every hand tool imaginable, but they are all up front; just a million or two trips back and forth for a wrench, or a tap or what ever. You know the drill... Did a Model T Ford trick. While working on the transmission bands (!) youd stuff (and count!!) rags around the trans in the event you drop anything inside. The alternative is to pull the motor or flip the car upside down and hope the nut or wrench would fall out. Today I stuffed a rag into the oil pan front to keep cleaning debris outa the pan. Its a no brainer, but as the job progressed, I'm glad I did as I dropped a cam sprocket bolt and it landed ON the rag. Got the business side all scraped clean, wire wheeled with the die grinder (no wires in the pan either!) and tapped all the mounting holes in the block front, then washed them with brake clean and blew them clean. 'Ol Bushman didn't have a chance to fork the cast iron up. But it still gets interesting... https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Bushman+the+gorilla Gorillas and Penguins... Darwin would've had a field day! Last week when pulling the chest apart, the damper did require a little puller action. Not too bad but wouldn't slide off. The crank gear was the same way. I hate to force stuff so the crank puller came along for the ride too. Come to find out that Bushman did have his "Dirty paws" on the crank snout sometime in the past. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdmqn9JIuzc Looks like bushman didn't have the pullers necessary to do the job and went ahead with screwdrivers and hammers. Hmmm. There was a couple of dings in the crank which necessitated a dressing with a small, fine flat file and some emery. I had to work around the key, it wasn't about to leave the tree Hahaha. Now its time to put the chain on with the sprockets. I tried the bottom gear and it was still a NO-GO. Some more polishing on both and a few drops of 3 in 1 oil and it went on about 1/3. probably could've tapped it on but didn't want it to get stuck... Willy's Law! Without another trip to the other shop for a ton of measuring stuff, I warmed the gear up with a propane torch to about 250F and it slide right on. Whew! That Cat Shaft is a BAAAAD mutha... right on Shaft, hush yo' mouf. Can ya dig it? Today the Chain; TOMORROW the World; after I go get a propane tank filled for heat. Toes got cold this afternoon. ws
So after the last few days putting the OP's mistakes right, and getting most of the front end put back together, I had an AH HA minute last night. I was going to make an oil pump primer but remembered I had a broken HEI unit in the box. I knocked the pin out, pulled the gear after comparing it to the running take out (RTO) gear and the RTO was the better. I decided to polish the least better gear and I guess I went too far. Oh hell... It turned out well and if you've ever done this before, you know where its going. A primer drive unit is like $25 and I am cheap enough to make my own. I did call T/A a bad name though... They sent me 4 new HEI drive gear pins at 3/16 dia. This one was 1/8. The RTO is in fact 3/16. Anybody guess when the factory changed the sizes?? This is gonna be the first of a few posts so the dial up guys don't get overwhelmed... ws Also pulled the non-used TCM (?) connection and put a socket head plug in its place. I did a diesel job 20 years ago and these were take outs. Hahaha... I finally got to use one!
Changed the oil yesterday and filled it up today for a pump test run. I figured I'd try one of the new chrome valve covers and FIVE new VC bolt spreaders. A new felpro gasket and we were ready to go. I had Pat come out to take a pic during the test. It took a few minutes to get the oil up to the pump, but we are home free. I am using a 300 rpm 1/2" drill motor (smoked my cordless 20V) which should mean that the crank speed is 600 rpm or a nice regular idle. ws The new cover leaked like a sieve. DAMN. Double-wiz fish... This is a brand new cover from some hot rod guys on Long Island,. Came with bolts and gaskets ready to go. I also used the spreaders to help spread the wealth to no avail. Is there a thicker gasket available or am I doomed to use a sealer on the VC's? The leak is now at the front and was at the rear with the red covers. The gasket rail on the head is as clean as can be. JHC... its a friggin' gasket! At least the pump aint leaking. Not yet anyways!!
TA makes thicker gaskets, http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1702-455B.250 It helps to glue the gasket to the valve cover with weatherstripping cement (gorilla snot)
I guess it's time to hang those on your shop wall and install the OEM valve covers I found for you. Larry
I had a lot of leaking probs on new chrome VC's, and not the cheap ones, either! Tried cork, tried rubber, I'm using stock hrdwre...NG. Bought a set of Edelbrock gaskets, not cheap, but thick. They are excellent...used gorilla snot on the covers, 4-5 lbs torque...they sealed perfectly. You can get them from EBAy, Summit, Advance, etc. I highly recommend them, cost sucks, but if regular gaskets won't seal, they're GREAT!
I think you guys are correct on all accounts. I did use spray glue on the covers, but at 1-2 microns, not much sealing capability. Ill probably try the old 3M weatherstrip glue, just because I'm set up with the new one already. If that fails the trusty real GM chrome covers are prepped and ready! Besides, the oil cap will line up; when I find that free chrome OEM AC Delco one! ray:ray: ADDED... EDELBROCK 7546 VALVE COVER GASKET SET These are the Hi-Po gaskets at 5/16" thick with a composition (?) steel and neoprene frame for about $21 plus change locally...no shipping. ws https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7546/overview/make/buick
So I was at the motor parts today getting ready to place my order for the VC gaskets and asked Al to look up the specs on them... unavailable. Hmmm. While he was searching I pulled an Edelbrock air cleaner off the shelf and called their tech support. BIG MISTAKE. Al had specs pulled up by then and his source called out 5/16" thickness (concurring with what I found last night from Summit and Jegs etc. as .310" thick) and EB's numbers were 3/16". We both had the part numbers as 7546. The tech guy kept saying "I'm reading it right off the screen". Lots of help he was. Al went ahead and ordered them and said we'd return them if not as advertised. If this is a fart in the wind, can anyone confirm a Mfgr. with thicker gaskets. I had seen some on edog from $20 all the way to like $44... yeah right. Ill glue joints down around the rims for sealing. Hi Jerry ! ws
