First of all, this is Tom Clary, Robs dad, throwing in my .02 cents. For many years I defended the Pure Stock/Factory Stock class when naysayers said Factory Stock cars could not run low into the 12s, now 11s, but as late, I really cannot do it, because most, if not all, of the cars running those numbers are not Factory Stock, including ours. Though legal per PS/FS rules, a H-pipe is not stock on a Camaro. To put it bluntly, as it is now, the PS/FS class has become a joke, not only within the class, but to outsiders as well. IMO, there are two choices, 1. let things continue as they are, basically, Fast Light or Stock Appearing or 2. 100 % Factory Stock. I would purpose all cars participating must be the way they would have come from the factory, period. Only items available on your model of car, from the factory, would be legal. Working heaters, wipers, spare and jack intact, etc. Only variance from this would have to be pre-approved by the tech committee. Makes writing the rules simple "Must be factory stock" AKA, as it came from the factory, and also makes the answering tech questions simple. Question.Is such and such legal? Answer.was it available on your model of car from the factory? No grey areas, either stock, or not stock. It is like with your wife/girlfriend, either she is pregnant or she is not, In most cases tech would be simple, a short once over, with word of the participant that their car is legal, but the committee would reserve the right to check any and everything, and if caught cheating, or suspected of cheating, immediately banned. Print a special Factory Stock sticker, denoting cars that participate, sort of like they did with Certified stock. Maybe assign numbers, like NHRA/AHRA, anything to denote the class. These rules would be in place at all Factory Stock/Fast races. Hopefully Dan/Bob would adopt them, if not, when running at Stanton, you might not be the fastest, but you would have the satisfaction of running within the spirit of the rules. Once made aware, I would think the various news media would once again embrace this class. If the majority of you are truly interested in saving the whole Pure Stock/Factory Stock concept, this is the only way to go, otherwise there always be loopholes added to the rules that favor this or that make, which leads to more debates, and more rules. Run the cars the way they were built, let the chips fall as they may, and most importantly, get back to having fun. Otherwise there is really just one class, Stock Appearing. In closing, how many of you would be willing to run 100% Factory Stock, or at least as close as possible?
I agree, Tom, but... most of our cars are slightly pregnant now because of the rules... some more than others but to be sure, most are. I don't know too many guys who are willing to go out an buy more 'untouched' castings and other parts to go slower, when they worked hard on maximizing a combo under the current rules.... it would be like pushing a marshmellow uphill with a rope.... and no mattter how much praise you shower on the 'Virgin Stock' cars, they will be overlooked by the much quicker cars in attenence, just the nature of racing, as the Certified Stock cars were unless they ran at the front, and even then the some of the certified cars were rumored to be outside the actual rules, not just the spirit of the rules........ You are correct that the outside world sees the word "Pure" attached to 11.50 cars and laughs, and that is unfortunate but understandable, but if the rules changed now, we'd have about 25 cars in attendance and half of those would fail tech ou: I'd love to see a redo of the rules, and go back to factory settings and factory parts, but I cannot see a way to do it without gutting the field, and that would kill the PSMCDR as we know it.
Donny, I see your point, but it is going to cost time and money either way. Folks can either spend the $$ to go back to stock, or step up to the world of racing trans, clutches, suspensions, stroker cranks, special cams and valvetrains, etc. Going back to stock would be a lot cheaper, and a one time change, as it is now, to play with the big dogs, a never ending money pit. I would a lot rather spend $$$ get Robs Chevelle going then buy a $5-7000 racing trans for the Camaro, and that would just be the start. Lets face it, at Virginia, the bar to compete in PS/FS was raised several notches. Tom Clary
I don't know Donny, is that true? As I see it, the cars that would be most "affected" are those running in the 11's and 12's. 80% of the field is much slower, less max'd-out and unlikely to draw the same criticism. It ought to be that with greater success comes greater responsibility to be honourable. One set of rules, less interpretation and a motivation to follow them by true enforcement. If you don't want to comply, take your car to F.A.S.T. (I just realized my comments read like a promo for F.A.S.T.!) P/S attendance grows by several new cars every year, and I think folks are having too much fun to see the event(s) killed-off. Just my humble thoughts.
The thing folks seem to overlook is this: The rules as written today are loosely enforced. So the question is, how is changing them going to make things different? No new rules, enforce what's there!
I disagree, Rob, and here is why: I get flack all the time on other boards about my car running a 13.47 and being Pure Stock. I know my compression is north of the advertized 11.0:1, but other than that, the car is build to the rules as written, not just the spirit. And resetting the clock would effect everyone..... Bruno's Virgin Stock 390 horse 427 Corvette ran 13.90s and so did Mark's Hemi Challenger, is that the starting point for us going forward ? And while I hear Tom saying that the top guys are spending the money anyways, for a lot of guys they went and maximized the only parts they can afford to meet the rules, how do they go back when the budget is tight? I would have to buy a new block and intake, others would need new heads. and I really can't imagine a FAST like compromise on only teching the faster cars at a certain ET, because that is just plain not fair. One rulebook is the only way to go. you are a cheater if you run ceramic lifters in a 12.20 car or in your 13.20 car.
Wow.For a race that is broke,it sure does seem to grow every year.As far as not having fun,whos not having fun? If someone wants to build thier car to factory specs,do it.NHRA spec,do it.Ban somebody if they get caught cheating??? Everybody is cheating on some level,whether they admit it or not.Give me a bore scope,and 5 minutes on each car,i,ll ban everybody.Guys,its a race for fun event,no prizes,no winners.Figure out what your version of fun is,and do it.As long as the guy in my pairing is close,i dont care,win or lose. We did not even get the event off this year,and i still had a good time.In this economy,i sure as hell aint going to rebuild the motor in my Judge again,because its built to NHRA specs.
I don't think anyone said it was broke.... and I'd hate to give that impression to anyone reading the board...... It's just that some of the cars have gotten way beyond what the rules allow, and how do you handle it. A Pure Stock anything that requires a roll bar is an issue, isn't it ??
Fair comments, Donny. But even historically, it's always the cars that are running the fastest that have to remove a valve cover, get bore scoped and pumped (for some reason I feel dirty after writing that). I don't think anyone is going to claim that this practice was a double standard are they? As for the mantra "enforce the existing rules", I have to ask: Which rules? ... P/S or NHRA? I for one like the notion of stuffing the Genie back in the bottle. Neither the rules nor the enforcement should be complicated in P/S. I hear your pain Donny about what to do with your engine that has already been maxed out to NHRA spec's; but that's my point. No one is going to harass you because you're not running 11's or 12's. You're not the subject of this witch hunt... so go and have fun. Maybe (although this may be unworkable) one of the ways to deal with this is to "grandfather" folks with existing combinations that are running 13.0 or slower. But if someone is going to flirt with 12.99 or better, they best make sure they'll pass tech without resorting to NHRA tolerances. That should help keep the cars within the track's insurance limits... ... and maybe also help keep me a little further away from the bye-run!
"Grand father folks".............my hiny :spank: We need to all play by the same rules. All it would do is give everbody not "Grand fathered" a good reason to do whatever I don't understand the problem with a car built by current rules Just my 2 cents
The ones sent to you in the mail by the P/S race organisers. Be sure to read the "Certification" portion. I think the last mailing of that was for 2007. Until another revision is sent they would stand. If NHRA is sending you information regarding P/S racing I recommend forwarding it to Dan or Bob.
I'd have to agree with Brian. enforce the current PSMCDR rules everywhere. I don't think you'd lose as many cars as has been forecast.
Ditto from here too...... ......use, and INFORCE the rules that are already in place. There's no need to change the rules if the existing ones aren't adhered to anyway. Boy, am I glad that the junk that I've had the last few races has been slow. Had JUST as much fun !!!! :TU:
I'm with Brian on this one too. Just enforce what's there. I think this race would stand to lose a lot of racers if they had to start changing parts for new rules.From looking at the results from year to year it seems that there is a core group of guys that come every year. No matter what(rain)! Now maybe I'm wrong on this but I think that most of those have built cars for just this race and this race only. Maybe a new poll to find out who would be willing to go back to 100% stock(or close to it) would not be a bad idea. I do like what Tom said about running "pure stock" but imho that this race is to far removed to ever go back to all stock.Just my .02
This thread, and the others preceding it in regards to PS/FS rules all seem to have all come to the same conclusion, that few, if any of the cars participating today are Pure Stock/Factory Stock. but more long the lines of stock appearing. Not a bad thing, just a common theme. Like others, I realize requiring all cars to be Factory Stock is a big step backwards, one many might not take, thus I think I have a simple solution. Why not have everyone from PS, FS, FAST, Stock Appearing join forces, for one large group, all running at the same events?. The key to this working? Three classes. 1. FAST, running under the rules that are presently written. 2. FAST Light, or Stock Appearing, which would run under the present PS/FS rules. 3. Factory Stock of Pure Stock, for those cars that are truly factory stock. Have one governing board to handle majors issues, such as race dates, but each class would be run by participants in that class, setting their own rules, have their own tech people, etc. Cars would be noted by assigned numbers, such as FAST/21, FL/15 or SA/15, FS/45 or PS/45. Qualifying could either be by class, or all run. On race day, cars would be paired by class and qualifying times. Because pulling the resources of all of the groups should help the car count, not only would it make the events run by the group more viable, but could open up the doors to other events. Tom Clary
Donny, What with the new "enlightenment", you're gonna have to put a hardtop on your Corvette. 13.47 is too fast in a convertable without a roll bar. :Brow:
