I have gotten some useful info on 300 from rover owners familiar with the 215/3.5L BOP engine that then became the rover engine. I want to put a blower, turbo or belt-drive centrifugal, on my all-iron '65 300. Considering it's ancestry, the turbo 215, and it's descendants - turbo 3.8, it should be a natural. (shouldn't it ?) Questions I have: 1] Can big valves for 3.8L or TA valves for 350 be put in 300? It would be comparatively easy, given that I will probably have guides put in, to oversize for larger valve stem diameter, but remachining length, keeper grooves would be a pain. What valves available in same length as 300, how large a seat will fit in chamber? 2]The 300 can be overbored to take 350/3.8L pistons, right? 3]Given that above pistons are shorter than stock 300, I should be able to use the longer 350 rods for more dwell ATDC, right ? Journals the same size and all? 4]Compatability of rover intake port locations with 300 iron heads. I know I will need plates to fill gap in valley, as 3.5L and later have shorter deck, but are ports spaced similarly? I know it's in-depth and technical, but thnx for any help, advice.
On question #4, take a look at the pix in this thread: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9683 Greg
Of course, if you're into blowers, a fella sent me a pic sometime back of a one off blower intake for a 215 he'd gotten from way back. Kinda neat! Greg
Answer to Question # 2.... YES, if a 300 is bored .050, Buick 350 pistons will fit... If I am not mistaken (going off memory), the 300 bore is 3.750, and the 350 is 3.80. (BTW - search this board because I posted a list of the Totally Stainless bolts one would need for a '65 300) Hope this helps
Thanks for the reminder, greg. I remember reading about Sean's single-plane intake before. Now I've got to go to the brits' and aussies' sites and ask if late model leyland and rover V8 intakes had same port sizes as wilpower and huffaker intakes. I'm actually looking for an aluminum dual-plane intake for my iron 300 heads. I could even settle for factory 4bbl '65 300 intake, only a little extra weight, but the aluminum does help reduce intake temperature a teeny bit. Don't want intake runners too big, have to keep low-end torque. Either turbo or clutch-activated Paxton will still need bottom end grunt.
Buick 350 piston's may physically fit in the bores if the 300 bores are bored another .050", but you really would have to check the pin height on the 350 pistons to make sure they are the same as the 300's to know for certain if they are a easy swap...There may also be some other dimensions in the piston's or rod length that may prevent a direct swap...Maybe someone can jump in and let us know for sure whether it can be done easily...
Exactly why I asked the other question, about connecting rods. I erred in my original post, thinking the buick 350 rod could be used, but it is apparently 0.391 longer, not 0.0391, as I thought. Pistons 3.80 in diameter - 0.050 over the 300 bore - are available forged (essential for high boost pressure) for the 350 and the 231. I know that some of these pistons are at least 0.030 shorter than the 300. If some of the even shorter pistons and smaller pins are used, I could use the slightly longer 6" forged aftermarket chevy rods. The figures I have for the deck height on the 215 indicate that I could keep stock rods and mill the 300 deck down to 215 height with slightly shorter pistons, allowing some weight reduction, and making adaptation of 215/3.5L or larger (4.6L)Rover engine intakes easier. I'll keep digging, I just found out yesterday the IEIEIEIE valve order of the 300 versus the EIIEEIIE valve order of the 350, obviously one of the considerations affecting camshaft compatibility.
This is some info from JimmieB on another Buick site: Information on Buick 215, 225, 300, 340, 350 JIMMIEB@ns,net unregistered posted 11-19-2000 11:55 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I build lots of small Buicks for Jeeps. Most customers come in wanting a V6, they were used in CJ's from 66 to 71, but one test drive of a 300 or 340 and the V6 idea is gone. Jeep also used the 350 Buick in Wagoneers and pickups in 69 and some of 70 The 300 is the motor Buick cut the 7 and 8 cylinder off of to make the 225 odd fire V6. The pistons,connecting rods,and valve train are all the same. The 340 is a stroked 300 the pistons and cams are the same, rockers and shaft same, but push rods (same as big block Buick),valves, and connecting rods are different. The 340 and 350 share the same crank and rods, the 350 is .050 larger bore than the 340. I bore all my 225,300 and 340 blocks .050 over and use stock 350 pistons. Buick did this to make the 231 V6. The 215,300,340,all are different strokes so the cylinder heads are all different distances apart. there are lots of intakes for a 215 both aftermarket and stock Buick and Rover. the 300 and 340 have no source I have ever found for intakes but Buick. 215 300 and 340 use the same cams and exhaust manifold spacing. I have found that port matching and smoothing on the intake side and dual exhaust with a H pipe works as well or better than headers and unequalized exhaust. We build headers by starting with V6 ones and adding the one tube on each side. I buy the header starter kit and 4 tube collectors and my muffler guy takes it from there. buy the longest collector you can, leave them unpainted and go out and make 4 or 5 hard run with no other pipe. the collectors will turn blue back as far as the sine wave carries the flame pattern (sometimes 12" or more). cut them there and start the exhaust system, any shorter takes away low end and adds noise. The 340 and 350 blocks are the same except the cam bearings and cam the 215 ,300 340 are ex,in,ex,in,in,ex,in,ex the 350 is ex,in,in,ex,ex,in,in,ex So a 350 must use different intake and exhaust manifolds there are a few aftermarket intakes out there for a 350. for my money the 340 is the better engine, the 350 was the start of smog motors the 340 was the last of a long line of brute power engines from Buick. all 225,300 340 & 350 share the same flywheel and bellhousing bolt patterns and motor mount locations so the sky is the limit. Good luck JIM *********************************************************************** Headers or not? JIMMIEB@ns.net unregistered posted 11-29-2000 01:33 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Headers or not to headers that is the question.... header primary tube diameter is a function of valve size. length is a function of stroke, collector size and length a function of sine wave length. when the exhaust valve opens and the piston travels up the bore, exhaust gas is purged from the engine. easy enough, but just as the valve opens the pressure and heat inside the cylinder are at their highest and the piston is moving its slowest.so if when the valve opened and there was a vacuum waiting to be filled in the port and tube the hot exhaust would be partly "sucked" out. as these bursts of spent gases pulse down the primary tube and hit the collector and rapidly expand they create a vacuum behind them. the number 1 mistake in header building is to big of primary tube. the area of the port and useable valve size (less stem area) will tell how big you need 1 1/2 on 215 ,300 and 1 5/8 on 340 is just right. I ported the hell out of a 340 and ran 1 17/8 tube it helped way up high in rpm but took out so much bottom end it slowed the car down. The length is measured from the valve face to the collector entry and should be divisible evenly by the stroke. the collector length is in my above post.... all that said, stay with stock manifolds and port match both intake and exhaust you will gain more. the 340 manifolds are outstanding. use your money on forged pistons, balance, head work and good exhaust system. you Will like it. JIM
I have a '64 Skylark 4-speed car with the 300 4bb. engine in it. I bored it .050" and used standard bore 350 Buick pistons and rings in it. I went a step further and found a set of TRW L2343F forged 350 Buick Pistons. The pin height and every other feature of the piston is the same. I also used a set of 283 Chevy high performance rod bolts that I bought from ARP--they are the same as the 300 rod bolts. With the 350 pistons and rings, you end up with about 310 cubic inches. Those light weight forged pistons along with the 11:1 compression on the '64 make for a very quick, responsive engine. I also used a Milodon double row timing chain--they sell one for the Buick V6 that works perfect on the 300. Another trick I figured out is that you can buy an oil pickup tube for a 231 V6 Buick and it is 1/2" in diameter instead of the 3/8" that is in the 300 engine. It bolts up perfect and sits the same position in the oil pan. You can then take a 1/2" reamer with an extension on it and ream out the oil passage in the block from the pickup to the oil pump. That along with a High volume oil pump kit makes for a much improved oiling system on the 300. The next 300 I build, I want to come up with some better connecting rods. I know that the rod bearing in a 300 is the same as the small journal chevys (283's and 327's). They make aftermarket 6" rods for the chevys and they can be had with the small journals. Has anyone tried to use these in a 300 Buick before? I think it could be done, but haven't tried it yet. They would be a huge improvement over the cast iron Buick rods.
Hello Brian, I looked into using the 2.00" x 6.00' Chevy rods two years ago when I rebuilt the engine in my 64 Skylark. The engine builder I went to, Lindskog in Acton, MA, measured both the 300 rod and a smallblock Chevy rod. They didn't believe that the Chevy rod could be modified to work because of the extreme difference in offsets. Since then, I've talked to both Oliver and Carillo about rods. Oliver can forge a set of steel rods for around $1000. Carillo wants nearly $400 per rod. In this thread, Jimmie stated that the 225 V6 rod can interchange with the 300. If so, I know that Crower made rods for the odd-fire V6. Don't know if they are still available and at what cost. Hope that helps. By the way, Sean Etson, who currently races a 12-second 300-powered '64 is using properly prepared stock rods with 283 rod bolts. I think he said that he has either 4.33 or 4.57 gears in the car. I'm guessing that he also runs 26"-28.5" tires. But, don't know for certain. So, with care, apparently the stock rods are tough enough for a 350 hp engine. Mark
When you say the offest of the rod, what feature are you referring to? I thought the chevy rod had a straight cut cap on it like the buick rods do. My '64 is an original factory 4-speed car. When I restored the car I did the engine like I outlined. I also put a billet machined steel flywheel in it I bought from Poston, along with a centerforce clutch. At the time, a friend I work with had a flowbench set up in his garage--he used to work for a company that ported heads, so he ported the 300 aluminum heads for me and we got approximately 20% more flow out of them. I bought a set of headers from Poston that they marketed at the time for the 300/340. They fit the pass side, but wouldn't go around the clutch linkage on the drivers side, so I ended totally re fabricating two of the runners on that side. Once I did that, they work great. I put the 2.5" mandrel bent flowmaster exhaust pipe and muffler kit on it from the headers back. I also had the engine balanced before I put it all together. All in all, this combination make for one strong, screaming engine. The car has stock size street tires on it and is a factory 3.23 posi. It will immediately roast the rear tires in 1st gear if you floor it (it will scream up to 7000 rpm quicker than you can get your foot off the floor) and leave good rubber when you hit 2nd. The key element in making it run so good is a custome ground Crower solid lifter cam and adjustable pushrods I had made for it. It works perfect and I highly recommend the Crower cams
I hope I don't get my words all twisted up here. Offset refers to the centerline of the connecting rod and the crank pin in relation to the cylinder bore. So, if you drew a line perfectly down the center of the bore, the big end of the rod would sit approximately at the center of the bore. However, the centerline of the rod would be .045" away from the center of the bore. I think that's the correct offset. This means that the rod is positioned off-center on the piston pin also. If I recall correctly, the engines are designed this way to reduce the stagger between cylinder banks, which also reduces the overall length of the engine. To check it, lay a rod on a flat surface and measure from the surface to the flashing along the beam. Flip it over and measure again. The difference is the offset. From what I was told, the stagger differences between the 300 and a 283 Chevy are too great to allow interchanging rods. As we know, this really sucks, because forged Chevy rods are relatively inexpensive. ...but I've been misinformed before.
Any idea where to get rocker arms that are better than the stock ones? I have double springs and solid lifter cam. My biggest problem has been wearing out the pushrod sockets on the rocker arms. I think I have cured it by grooving the inside of the rocker arm where it rides on the shaft so more oil will flow out to the pushrod socket hole. I would love to find some adjustable rockers that are built stronger (although I have never actually broken a rocker arm, just worn through the pushrod sockets). I have come close to making some on the milling machine, but the offset to the rockers really complicates things.
That's right Mark, you're wrong. It's been common practice for many years to use shaved 2" chevy rods in stoked 215's with Buick 300 cranks. No problems. This is from the D&D Fabrications website: http://www.aluminumv8.com/connectingrods.htm There is a lot more info if you go to the main site: http://www.aluminumv8.com Greg
Greg, (and interested 3rd parties) this may be the info from website you supplied links to, can't recall right now. "The 3.5L block can be bored almost .250 over with proper liners, to use Chevy 305 pistons, and likewise narrowed 327 Chevy rods. With a 300 crank, the stroke is increased 0.600 The early (64) 300 aluminum heads can be fitted with stage 1 V6 stainless valves or Old diesel valves." The 300 is basically a tall-deck cast iron version of the 215, larger stroke and bore, some crank seal changes, larger valves. And the 3.5L is a 215. If the brits and aussies can use bowtie rods, why can't I? From what I understand, the sides of the rod are shaved at the big end, so they'll fit together on the journal, and I guess eliminates the fit problems (??) Of course I am confused by the mention of cast rods in the 300, I had assumed they were forged, and of fairly good quality and strength, if not as good as modern aftermarket parts. Oh, and the 300 is NOT a nailhead. The nailheads were built from '53 to '66 and increasingly overbored during that time 264; 322; 364; and the popular "400" 401 and 425 co-existing with the 300 small block. They featured rear distributors, upright valve covers bolted in the middle with two bolts. Ecstatic with how much information we are gathering here on the 300 ! Wonderful to hear so much from those who have been there!
Now I'm wondering about those rods. Hmmm. I do have something around here somewhere mentioning pre-'77 231 rods being the same as 225 and 300 rods, and being stronger. I think that's info I got from a brief phone call to Dan LaGrou at D&D. He's the guy who knows all about these small-block buicks. He's also a very busy guy, so I didn't get a chance to pick his brain all day about every detail, like I wanted. Only pre-77 odd-fire 231 rods work, before the change over to even-fire and the larger 2.25 inch crank pins. Still compiling info, thanks again for all the information!
This info comes from a Dan LaGrou article: HEADS When Buick introduced the 300 cubic inch V-8 in 1964, aluminum heads helped keep the weight of the new cast-iron block engine down. But because of the higher cost of aluminum casting vs. cast-iron, these heads were only offered on the '64 engine. The 1965 - 67 300 sported conventional iron heads. The aluminum heads weigh only 18.5 lbs. each, complete with valves, springs and retainers (vs. Rover's 20.0 lb.) and hold somewhat small valves at 1.625" intake and 1.313" exhaust. The advantages of the 300 heads for the stroker motor are numerous. First is obviously the light weight. Secondly, the combustion chambers are dimensioned for the 300's 3.750" bore which works nicely to that of the Rover, particularly after the Rover bore is taken out to 3.710". The 54cc combustion chamber, using a .050" thick composite Rover head gasket, will yield a 10.4:1 compression ratio. Because aluminum heads dissipate heat quickly, they can tolerate higher compression ratioswithout detonation. The stock 300 heads will not breath sufficient air and fuel to keep up with the demands of the stroker engine. Dan's recipe calls for larger valves, mild porting and a few other tweaks to bring the heads up to the performance levels we are seeking. The intake valve is replaced with a 1.720" diameter piece from the 1988 - 92 Pontiac "Iron Duke" 151ci 4-cylinder engine (Federal Mogul p/n V2530). The 300 head's exhaust is opened up using Manley P/N11667-4 Volkswagen 38mm (1.496) stainless steel intake valves.The larger valves will require new seats, such as Precision PC1500-31 (exhaust) and PC1750-39 (intake), which any competent machine shop can easily install, and the new valves and seats get a three-angle grind. The machine shop will also grind the valve lengths to match the Buick 300 stock length. The guides on the 300 heads are undoubtedly worn and the new valves stem diameters differ from the stock 300's, so the guides must be sleeved. One guide liner option is Ohio P/N 6896H. At the same time, have the machinist cut the tops of the valve guides and install a Perfect Circle style valve stem seal on the intakes only. Pockets should be opened up to match the valve seat diameters. The face of the boss supporting the valve guide is smoothed and shaped to minimize airflow restriction and the length of the guide cut down. Shave the gasket side of the head to insure a flat surface for sealing with the block. VALVETRAIN Use stock Buick 215 or Rover pushrods and rockers, along with Crane 99849 small block Chevy springs. Hold the valves in place with stock VW(Sealed Power P/NVK204) and Pontiac (Sealed Power P/N216) keepers meshed with '87-'91 GM P/N 10040230 2.5L retainers. Either Buick 215 or Rover lifters willwork.
Rods This is a pic of the available small block rods. The "Odd Fire" (I think) 3.8 V6 rods are the same length as the Buick 300 rods - 5.96" center to center. When GM went to the Even Fire, the big end diameter changed to 2.1". I believe the years you might look for are 75-76. The Australian Leyland P76 4.4 liter V8 rods are dimensionally identical to the Buick 215 rods but have a 6.25" center to center length. And yes, they will fit onto a Buick 300 crank with no mods. Greg
