First Test- KBR Super Wildcat Billet heads

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by Jim Weise, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    John, pretty sure this is not a pump issue.. it's either windage foaming the oil, and/or oil return to the sump. G forces seem to overcome either issue in the car.. I can take windage out of the equation with the new deal I am building, and the return issue is usually solve by simply adding more oil, if your pan sump is big enough to hold it away from the crank at the begining of the pull..

    But thanks, and if it comes to that, I will give you a call.

    JW
     
  2. BQUICK

    BQUICK Well-Known Member

    I'm thinking pump cavitation or aeration.....
    Has anyone made a gerotor style setup for stock pump? Like the late model V6's had.....
     
  3. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member

    be interesting to see if the new iron blocks have the same issue when they get tested
     
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  4. Daves 71 GS

    Daves 71 GS Well-Known Member

    Built a 14 degree 406 small block chevy,Brodix block,Jesel belt,Pro- action heads.It would do the same thing with the oil pressure.The oil was cavitating in the valve covers because it needed to vent better between the pan and upper end.I added a -10 vent line from the fuel pump block off plate to the Valve cover and solved the oil pressure problem.Something to think about.
     
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  5. Staged70Lark

    Staged70Lark Well-Known Member

    Gary G.

    As a comparison... I have two engines that I consider to be bracket engines that Rich Brouwer and I bracket race. Rich's is a 523 and mine is a 572 CID (not a raised cam). Both engines have adapted Chrysler intake manifolds. Rich's is Flying toilet whereas my engine has a single 1050 CFM carb. Rich's engine has TA TE heads that flow in the 370s and my 572 has stg4s that flow in the 390s both with good low numbers. The both engines run the same camshaft.... 284/296 @.050... .720 ish lift one a 114 LCA. Compression ratio is similar on both engines at 14.4 to 14.7:1. Rich's engine is a wet sump with external oil pump whereas my engine is a dry sump. Rich's engine made over 900 HP on the dyno and I have never had my engine on the dyno. Our ET's .... Rich has gone in the 8.40s at almost 2600 lbs and I have gone 7.90 at 2355 lbs. We RPM them through the traps at around 7400.

    We have been told that to go faster we must RPM the engines more. Dave Mongeon (Nicest guy I have ever met) says that if I go from a 4.10 gear to a 4.33 he guarantees I go a .10 quicker. However.... I want my engine to live so 7400 is fine with me.

    What would an additional .150 lift in camshaft do for these engines????? That would also require that I change the porting on the cylinder heads for a higher lift camshaft.

    Jim W. or KB,

    If someone were to order a set of heads, how long would it take to get them? Congrats on your results!!! I can't wait to see Mike E. back at the track!!!
     
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  6. Julian

    Julian Well-Known Member

    I have often thought about the pressure differentials above and below lifter areas between the cast and aluminum blocks. The latter is basically enclosed while the cast is open.

    Now some have expoxied this lifter area on cast iron blocks and added stove pipes, have those people encountered the same dilemma?
     
  7. Steve Reynolds

    Steve Reynolds SRE Inc

    Jim,
    I'm following this closely...….. good results on the dyno. Just a note on windage screens...……….. I've gone away from the uni-directional screens and just do the louvered screens now. I heard some top engine builders give some negative comments towards the uni-directional screens so it prompted me to only use the tried and true louvered design. And for reference, ALL of my past race and street motors have had uni-directional screen in them and I've never personally had any issues with oil pressure...… with internal or external oil pumps. Just food for thought, but I realize that you're already well past this point in your investigations...……….
     

    Attached Files:

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  8. TA Perf

    TA Perf Member

    Yes, there should be much concern. I worked through this issue years ago. Need to review component choices in this build as well as clearances.
     
  9. Briz

    Briz Platinum Level Contributor

    Steve, Where can these screens be purchased?
     
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  10. ken betts

    ken betts Well-Known Member

    I won't be working at all with existing cylinder heads. A higher lift cam requires more than porting, longer valves, taller springs, rocker arm geometry changes, possible valve cover changes, etc. If you think about it, My head and parts program is for bolt on. We can do the assembly or you can. JW will be building 2 more motors this winter with my billet heads.
    Right now we have 3 sets of billet heads, If anyone is seriously interested I would sell them. There is a catch, Those sets will only go on motors built by JW. We are starting CAST ALUMINUM duplicates of the billet heads Jan. 4th. No shipping date yet. We will be making street, strip and pro rocker sets for the cast heads in house. Our goal 500cfm with ZERO porting. I have heard numbers in the $2000-5000 range for those services to get flow #'s in the low 400's. Any new sets of billet heads will be custom order only for now. Usually 10 days to get the material we want, machine time based on work load availability.
     
  11. Julian

    Julian Well-Known Member

    What is the price differences between the cast and the billet?
     
  12. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member

    not you be here, but how fair is to ask for the price of something that hadn't even been produced yet????

    I am just as excited about all these new parts........but we need to be reasonable in our thinking, give them the time to reduce and test these parts so when they do get to us we all can enjoy them without issue instead of having to go through and fix little issues because products were rushed.

    I'm sure ken and his team would love to be able to give us a price.........but if they would now, then something had to change and the price changed, ppl would be upset.

    my te2 heads were about 1500 bare, I had larger intake valves installed so I had a little extra at TA for the seats to be installed think under 200 plus the valves at 225ish........so about 2k there....had CNC porting done at finishline motorsports at 1100ish, plus springs and retainers, which I think all that stuff was hear 400. so give or take $3500 and mine came back 380/270 @ .700. they still us the as cast rocker set so no new valve train needed.
    so if they can get a 500cfm head for anywhere near that 3500ish it's a screaming deal. I think when looked when they were posted that at the same lift the new billet head were flowing near 50 cfm more,give or a take a little, on both the intake and exhaust side over my cnc heads. that's awsome if thsts how they come as a buy it, bolt it on, and go product

    to compair, afr 377 BBC heads have similar numbers at .700 and they are starting at 3700ish plus a few things made to fit you build.

    so even if they are in the low 4000s it's a fair market value
     
  13. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Hey Steve... Yes, I have heard that too about the solid louvered tray, vs any type of screen, from multiple sources that I have consulted, most importantly from Ron over at the dyno.. He has witnessed a lot of oil system/windage screen/tray tests over the years. The first picture you posted is exactly what i had in mind for this particular engine, with your external oil suction oil pan, and TA's scavenger system, that was installed on this engine when it was originally built. It has your standard rear sump Tomahawk pan on it still, because that was required, the picture of the Red car above, has this engine in it, in it's original build configuration, with 340cfm Stage 2 TE head on it, that made 750 HP.

    Had this been a "from scratch" build, for his current tube chassis car, it would have a pan on it like you built for George Sweesy's car, all those years ago.. had we chosen to keep it a wet sump. But I would have suggested a dry sump system, mainly for safety's sake. And getting the oil out of the pan is worth some power.

    While I think the addition of a louvered tray in this motor would be helpful all the time, it's important to note that this backwards oil pressure issue is only seen on the dyno, with the motor stationary.. it does not happen in the car.. this motor has almost 70 dyno pulls on it, dating back to 2010, and nearly 700 1/4 mile passes, and it has no oil pressure issue on the track. But it has exhibited this on the dyno, as has ever other one I have personally tested, and I have yet to see the dyno sheet on one, that used a 300 rpm/second sweep testing procedure, with an rpm span that makes the test last 12-15 seconds that does not exhibit it.. I would like to see a sheet on one that didn't do it, if anyone has one.

    It's not unusual for engine builders who dyno a lot, to see this, even in other makes of engine. I have talked to several lately that confirm that. But it can be overcome I believe, and that is what we are working on now.

    Again, my concern is that the next incarnation of this engine, and Jim B's centrifugally supercharged one, are going to need to live in that 7500-8000 rpm range for testing on the dyno, and 40psi of oil pressure ain't gonna work.. I am not going to hurt one of these on the dyno, and it's why this engine only went to 7500 once. All previous tests were conducted to 6800 where it still had upwards of 60psi.

    And the oil was hot here.. it was the last test, and it dropped off more than we had seen in previous ones.
     
  14. Tom Righter

    Tom Righter Well-Known Member

    Hi Steve, how much for that louvered set up, Like in your picture for the T/a block. This is for a internal oil pick-up thanks Tom
     
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  15. Tom Righter

    Tom Righter Well-Known Member

    I often wonder the same thing, Maybe Ken Betts would like to comment on that. Tom
     
  16. Julian

    Julian Well-Known Member

    Ben,


    It's a fair question. Even though they're in the planning stages, they have to assess the monetary demands or requirements that is needed to have this happen and in turn, recoup what is spent. So there is an estimated cost that is part of the plan. This is business plan 101.

    There are guys that want heads for the Buick to compete in their respective classes and want a ballpark figure out how much is it going to cost them to convert over to another set of heads. The idea of the cast head does intrigue some of them.
     
  17. GS Kubisch

    GS Kubisch THE "CUT-UP" BUICK

    Pricing is a fair question since KB has stated elsewhere that these billet heads have been available for 2+ years...

    And as I've stated elsewhere, plan on $20K + to put this top end on an engine
     
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  18. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member

    guess I didnt realise they have been available for so long
     
  19. GS Kubisch

    GS Kubisch THE "CUT-UP" BUICK

  20. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Better be in a nice supportive chair when you find out ha....but as we all know this crap is expensive and there was a lot of time and money spent to bring these heads to reality so I would imagine most of us would expect it to go well beyond 10k for the billets and a head of that caliber in such limited quantities even cast is gonna put a dent in most anyone's wallet.

    Friend of mine was showing me some BBF billet heads few weeks ago and they were 10k

    The Cast heads are definitely up in the air but as far as the billets I haven't seen a number thrown out anywhere
     

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