Is a Buick really faster than a Hemi? conspiracy theory...

According to Engine Designer Dennis Manner, a 1970 Factory Stage 1 motor made 376 HP on the engineering dynos at Buick.

They were rated at 360 HP strickly for insurance reasons, as back then the insurance companies charged higher rates if the car had more then 1 HP for every 10 lbs of vehicle weight.

... and every good Mopar guy knows that a 440-6 pack car would outrun a Hemi car.. when both were really stock.

Tim Hol, one of our good friends at the shop here, had both a Hemi car and a 440-6 car back when they were new. He reports that the six pack car would put a fender on the Hemi car, in a stoplight to stoplight run. The hemi car would come back by the six pack car if the race went long enough.

JW

 

Hemi Schmemi

C'mon guys! Let's not forget that those Road Runners and GTX's and Cudas had crank down windows and no AC. Whoopee, you beat a 4000 lb luxo cruiser by 3/10ths!

I don't care who beats me... but any big car with power seats, power windows, AC, power steering and power brakes that runs 13s (without a computer) is an automatic winner. And if someone in any of the other camps can't tip his hat to that fact, then they are not being honest with themselves.

Or they're just stupid...

 

Hemi? -Hah! LS6- Loser!

I think the kid needs to have lived the day to really make the comments he made. I was in the heat of the muscle car era and can for a fact tell you that I NEVER saw a hemi beat a Buick, much less any other car, bone stock. The LS6? My 72 GS ate them for lunch light to light. Probably would have beaten me in the 1/4 mile but I guess it still wouldn't have been much of a victory considering I ran a GS 350. My brother ran a Roadrunner with a very built 383 and still couldn't get me light to light. A friend of mine ran a 70 GSX,non-stage, auto, bone stock and beat a guy he worked with that had a Hemi Roadrunner so many times he finally gave up. That was in the 1/4 and not on the street. Fact is and for ever more will be, the Buick was the most under-rated muscle ever built- unless one of them took you out. Then you had a new respect for the luxo-muscle car.

 

Now you're talking!!:Brow: Sure would have been a sweet ride!!:TU:

For the same reason the Buicks do so well - Torque Rules!!

Darryl - Do you still have your 500+" Caddy powered Skylark? I know you've mentioned it in the past. Would love to see pics and hear more on the engine specifics. :TU: :TU:

 

HEAR, HEAR!!! GO YARDLEY!!! :beer :beer :beer

I was there in 'the day', saw lots of stuff get beat by lots of other stuff. Just because somebody somewhere in an X beats a Y, doesn't mean squat!

There's more to making a great car than 1/4 mile times (gasp!!!), and that's why I love old Buicks. Well engineered, comfy cars that last forever and have enough power to get out of their own way. Sometimes I get there first, sometimes the other guy does. Don't make me want to sell my Buick, though. Hell, it's a family member by now!

BTW, Is anybody else so sick and tired of the current "That thing got a HEMI in it?" ad campaign you could puke? Once again, the marketing 'people' are at it again, making mountains out of whatever they have handy...sheesh. In 20 years, I can see a bunch of 5.0 Mustang guys arguing about GN's....

James

 

I was thinking the same thing.

Been out cleaning the cobwebs out of that thing? Along with taking milk money from the Mustang kids? :laugh:

 

Is a Cadillac powered Buick a "Badillac"?

 

I like your thinking. :grin:

- Freed

 

One more youngster throwing a hand grenade into a room and stepping back to see what happens, without getting anything splattered on him. No more posts by the thread starter, in case you guys didn't notice.
PS - For the record, I'd bet a thousand dollars that a true, stock Stage1 would beat a true, stock Hemi. :TU:

 

Pitch fork and Torches

Some of you guys need to calm down. I started this thread to find out about the infamous test. I expressed my opinion on the subject, and I thought I backed it up with some good points. I have learned a few things on the subject. Some of you guys said I was just a youngster with no respect to the Buick name. Its very true I was born in the 80s when there was seemingly no hope in GM. I saw the light, and at a very young age I started collecting/reading Muscle car info. Specifically when I was in sixth grade. I was going with what I learned from car mags, which I found out to be unreliable. Thats why I started this thread. I knew I couldn't rely on what I read, so I wanted some knowledgeable input from some of the members who were there. Thats all. Not like it makes a big difference now... I don't think I'm selling the Buick if I find out we cheated. I just wanted to get some opinions on the test instead I either got yelled at, or the response had little to do with what I asked. o No: Either way, sorry, and Thanks for the replies. :beer

 

Sounds to me that the Hemi and 455 are two different animals. As street engines they would be matched pretty even but go farther and thats when the Hemi shines. The more apples to apples comparison I would think would be matching the 455 stage 1 with the 440 six pak engine. JMO

Dan

 

hmmmmm

oh well it doesnt matter which won because where it really matters is when you are on the streets and someone acts all cocky bnecause they dont think your buford is packing heat and then they see nothing but tail lights at the green then they give you respect and shut up. id rather have my nailhead may not be the most powerful but its prettier than hell and the note that comes from those pipes oh damn.:laugh: makes ya gidier than a damn 3rd grade school girl..

 

It's all about myth busting IMO. Some engines and some cars have garnered a reputation and legend about them. Doesn't mean they can't be beat on a given day. The simple truth is that manufacturers know what the other guy is doing. I'm sure the Buick engineers knew what a street Hemi was capable of when they built the Stage1 car. The car and engine were intended to be a player in the Woodward wars. And it accomplished the goal. The Hemi gained it's rep. on the track. That reputation naturally led people to buy the all conquering Hemi in a body style of their choice to roll around and brag about their new hot rod. As with the 454 Chevy and 302 Boss Ford, the Hemi was, in street production tune, not the optimum setup. A weak low end powerband because of the heads gigantic ports, which in turn really hated restrictive exhaust manifolds, which in turn caused the 2 Holley carbs to flow too much CFM, which in turn caused a low end loss etc., etc, etc,. What I'm getting at is that the 455 was a well designed street package. The other manufacturers race based engines were all compromised to detune them for production car duty. So what we end up with is, on the street, IN STREET TUNE a Stage 1 GS can beat a Hemi.

 

If I'm not mistaken, didn't a guy named Dave McIntosh used to put 455 Buicks in Corvairs and race them? Maybe when I go pick my motor up next week I'll ask him about it. Come to think of it, I did see a Corvair sitting among the old Rivs, GSs and Regals in his side lot.

 

One thing I'd like to ad is that the Buick 400-430-455 is the most "modern" and recent design of the "muscle car" big blocks. Most of the others were created in the 50s like the ole nailhead.
Imagine if we never got the upgrade would be all be playing with nailheads? I don't think so.....

This is not to say it is superior in all respects but it is a darn good piece.
Look at the Pontiacs....designed in the 50s and all had CAST rods except the Super Duty motors.

The hemi was a high rpm motor....it's 490 ft lbs of torque was at a lot higher RPM than the 455.

Darryl....where do you see that the 500 Caddy was rated at 450 hp? Not in any of my books.

Bruce

 

Yep, I'v still got it...
Unfortunately, I have not even started it in over a year.
I seem to loose interest in my old projects, and just prefer to build new ones instead.

Yea, I know it's more expensive that way, but, well, what can I say??? It's an addictiono No:

The "specs" can be found here: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=486

As far as pictures, well.... It's nothing very exciting. Several years ago [good lord, has it really been that long?] someone hit it pretty good in the front end, so the grill and bumper are missing, and the drivers side head-lights are pointed down to the ground. I'v got all the parts to put it back together, but just have too many other things taking up my time.

BTW, as to the "450 HP", My bad,,,, Memmory failing in my old age:laugh: I should have said "400 HP".... Still very respectable numbers.

 

Mike

Next time you see Dave ask him if he is ever bring that race car back out I sure miss seeing it. That was the first 9 second buick I saw the first time I went to the nats. Back when I was still a Chevy guy. I have to say that the car that turned me on the most that year was Bob Gillums green gs it ran low tens then and was very clean just thought the car was cool. Now all I do is play with these things day in and day out what a twisted life I live LOL:TU: :TU:

 

Darryl - Thanks for that old link!! :TU:

Quite a build up on that Caddy 500".....good stories to go with it too!!:TU: :bglasses:

 

Bobb,

I'll ask him about it when I see him next week but for some reason, I don't think he's interested in it anymore.

 

Re: Pitch fork and Torches

Joe
In your quest for the truth, do a search for three threads in this forum from a month or two ago. I posted the original articles on each of the three rounds of Stage 1 vs. Hemi
They are titled "Buick vs. Hemi round 1", etc.
The factories had nothing to do with these races, which ocurred in the 1980s