Is a Buick really faster than a Hemi? conspiracy theory...

Hemi vs Stage

While I was only six years old when the 455" Stage 1 made its debut, we all have the January 1970 Motor Trend to set the record straight. As most of you already know, a 1970 GS Stage 1 car ran an elapsed time of a blistering 13.38 for those folks testing the GS.

"...13.38 seconds at 105.50 miles an hour. Stock."

No matter what, "The Without A Taste of Geritol" article shows that Buick had put together THE street package. If a Buick fellow is to properly bench race, he certainly should have a copy handy. The more you read the article, the more you come to realize what its writers were trying to tell you.

"Among those who know performance in Super Cars...If you got a stone, no amount of promoting, or masochistic posturing is going to fool them...Stripes, wide weenies, and scoops can give that Super Car look, and a lot are trying. But there's something else. It's like soul...Now come the Super offering for 1970...skeptics are looking them over...There's one that may go overlooked for a while. But not long...Anyway, skepticism is about to be shattered by a car that's probably the sleeper of the year. It's a Buick."

When you read those first paragraphs and get past some of the groovy jargon they used back then, it becomes obvious what they are trying to say. The marketing of an air grabber hood with teeth and a Hemi emblem aren't going to cut it anymore. Buick engineers have gotten through the red tape and created something that can beat ANYTHING! The 426 hemi-out since '66-has been surpassed!

"Sleeper of the year may be the understatement of the year. Buick's Stage 1...is an engineering tour de force." How many times do you think the Motor Trend staff had tested a Hemi between 1966 an 01/70? How familiar were they with Chrysler's offerings? I would say they were very familiar! Can they come right out and say that the Stage 1 will blow the fenders off the Hemi? Nope! Because they need the green from the advertising department to put bread on their table. Chrysler Corporation had spent plenty advertising the elephant image. One doesn't need to examine too many old car magazines to see the wicked truth in that. Even as a child I loved those ads, especially the cartoon versions depicting the "eyes" and the birds and the bees. So, if you like a Chrysler for performance, that IMAGE of performance, it probably came largely from the desire to have one of those beasts portrayed in the advertisement.

How did Buick advertise? :boring: Boring, no, totally drab, ads with no real indication of what the 455 Stage 1 was capable of. So how did most Buick guys become Buick guys? Over the years I have found there is really only two catagories:

1.] Someone you knew had a GS and you found out first hand what an awesome machine it was. (this was how I came to find the power of the 455 Buick)

2.] You saw a Buick perform on the street or at the track and realized how able the car was.

"Performance, of the straight ahead variety, verges on a precipitous mechanical hysteria, especially from a dead start...Acceleration from 0 to 60 looked something like 5.5 seconds in the automatic...And that's with a full box of Kleenex."

The authors proceed to go on about the car's handling and manners. Then they conclude with a bazaar statement. That Buick dealers will essentially not know what to do with this new product.

"They're used to selling Electra 225's. They think it's some kind of Street Racer's Revolution. And they're in the way. They've got a gold mine and don't know it."

While Bill Trevor and the boys may have put the tune on this test mule, other articles show an equal potential from the Stage package. It took years for Buick GS to get past the hype. Past the fabulous marketing of other manufactures'.

Even to this day, some Buick people still have trouble believing. How can a single Q-jet sucking air into a wedge motored old man's car put a hurtin' on a HEMI? Simple. The Stage 1 engine under the hood doesn't know about the graphics, spoilers, wide weenies, and hyped up hemi in the lane next to it. It just knows when the throttle is mashed, it is time to answer to it's owner's command. To unleash the 400 estimated horsepower and the monster torque it was designed to offer. To show the skeptics "lining up" that the "Stage 1 is good for blowing the fenders off some self-proclaimed leaders."

Conspiracy - No, absolutely not!

 

Wow! Well said Brian, i couldn't agree with you more.

 

that site's wrong for the vettes i know that for sure, L-88 put out more like 560 horse in 67 and 68 then in 68 they also had a vette with the Z-L1 option only 2 of these vettes were made and i read in motor tread 0-60 in 3.9 and the quater in 10's, and these vettes were from factory, now there were only 2

 

I have been keeping up with the rivalry ever since I read about it when I was 14.

The facts have always been in front of our eyes yet the yarns people turn are never accurate. Stories get handed down from person to person, creating a legend bigger than the cars themselves.

Car Review created a 50 Fastest list and the Stage 1 was #3. A Mopar guy said they ran like they were tied to a tree, and a challenge ensued. Two non-stock cars raced and the Buick was the victor. I believe two more races ensued over the years with mixed results.

The GTX is most definitely analogous to a GS. Both are somewhat upscale musclecars. By 1970, the GTO was like this too. Regardless, it's about the engine, not the cars. And, by the way, Mopars could be ordered with power windows too. :dou:

The Hemi is a detuned racing engine. The Stage 1 is a tuned street engine. Some engines were built to be modified and were sold in poor states of tunes - the Boss 429 comes to mind. 1968-69 W-30s were expected to have headers installed by the new owner. Hemis, to a much lesser degree, were like that too.

On the other hand, the Stage 1 was meant to be a great street engine. No parts were needed to do what was intended. Round-port Pontiacs and 440-4 GTXs were like that too. What does that give us? Stock, a Hemi may struggle, but it's an excellent engine and in the proper tune is still something to be reckoned with.

The link for the list posted here by someone . . . why even bother? It's incomplete, incorrect, and just serves as fodder for those with an agenda. We all know what the cars are capable of. And we all know what magazines are capable of - not being honest with the times, receiving ringers, etc.

In sum, the Hemi is the engine to which all others are compared. It can be beat, but nothing else is like a Hemi. L79 Novas used to beat Hemis with 101 less cid. Stage 1s have beaten Hemis. There are many others that have beaten Hemis. But Hemis have also beaten those cars as well. Enjoy the cars for what they are because that's what makes this hobby special.

 

hemi vs stage 1

very well said, brian albrecht.

henry white

 

Amen and Amen!

The gospel according to Motor Trend! And "Cars" magazine. Both realized the power of the GS and foretold a sad truth. It would be overlooked and under estimated. My earlier post says the very thing you say, on the street it was unbeatable.

 

Stage power rules

Thank you Henry and Jay for the accolades. Henry, I was sorry to read of the hood molding's demise and hope you at least got some compensation and satisfaction from those that damaged it. The real thanks needs to go to TimR and Motor Trend. Tim put it online making it easy for each of us to quote:

http://members.shaw.ca/timcr/roadtest.html

Jim W. mentioned the 440+6 was a more potent street package. I think Jim is right. The few times I have seen a Mopar come out on top at a Supercar event it was usually a six pack car. Also, more than one original GS owner has admitted to me they have had more trouble with 340 Dusters and Darts than their big blocks counterparts.

Personally, I have been to countless races, on and off road, and the Buicks never cease to impress me. Even if I were in another camp, say the fan of the GTO, years of witnessing the Buick "dynamite" blast down the quarter would eventually yield some sort of acknowledgement, some sort of realization, that all in all, the Buick is indeed top dog of the original musclecar era.

One other thing many tend to overlook. While the Hemi was no longer on the showroom from '72 through '74, the Stage 1 package was still going strong. What I find ironic is that the Roadrunner ads of the period say, "Only the Strong Survive" yet the hemi was gone. The Stage 1 was the strong one to survive. When Hi-Performance Cars test drove the 1972 GS Stage 1 and named it car of the year, they noted how Buick engineering was able to meet emissions and still put out a potent package. The same basic powerplant powered the '73 Stage cars too! Where was the Hemi then? I suppose Chrysler just ran out of teeth decals for the air grabber hoods.ou:

This Buick ad reminds me of elevator music.

 

Cartoon ads-cool stuff

Not that I ever really have a final thought, I would like to add this interesting twist. Buick did not make the same mistake twice. In my humble opinion the GN and GNX received the proper marketing and as such their reputation was stout right from day one. When I see "Bad to the Bone", I hear G.T. and the Deleware Destroyers immediately!

This ad quotes Motor Trend with ou: the nearly the same m.p.h. as the "Geritol" article. This ad reminds me of Jimi Hendrix music...

 

I agree with Doug Hecker-a stock Stage 1 would beat a stock Hemi. Case in point-I took my untouched, unrestored Stage 1 down the track(in 1996) and it ran 13.70 @102.79 mph.Now this mind you is a car that was not at all tuned up and was in fully streetable trim. After making this run,I found that the timing was off 5 degrees retarded,so of course that would've made the car even faster.If I had tuned the car for the track,I am more than positive it would've run the way these cars ran when they were new(13.38 @105.50 mph).Right now,since I restored my car,my car is even faster than when it was new.
These cars are truly awesome machines.

Come on baby light my fire!:TU::3gears:

 

OK, OK - Everybody is splitting hairs. The "official" motor city record shows the following -

1970 Hemi-Cuda - 13.10@107.12 (the GTX motor city test was with a 440)

1970 GSX Stage 1 - 13.38@105.5

Close enough to say that different day, temp, dew point, etc. it could go either way.

More interesting is the following:

1969 GTX 440 6-pack - 13.71@102.8

1987 GNX Turbo V6 - 13.70@102.0

(Now THAT should be embarrassing!!!)

The Hemi was designed as a racing engine and is undisputably and exceptional one. There is a reason for its popularity in the top fuel class. The Buick 455 was NOT designed for racing. It was designed to be a smooth-running and dependable torquer that could do OK at the strip on Saturday and get the groceries on Sunday. Buick wanted to be low-profile. That's why the GS looks a little on the plane jane side. It was intended that way. Buick did catch the bug and was scrambling to get the Stage 2 out the door (and it wasn't a publicized option) before the lid slammed shut on performance. Those few that went out the door with the Stage 2 option could consistently run down the quarter in under 12.

Buick wasn't trying to build the fastest car. They wanted a low profile muscle car that could run with the rest and still be available to take mom to church on Sunday. Even then, they still came within a 1/4 sec of the much more famous Hemi. Imagine if they had TRIED!

As for those stuck on horsepower ratings - they should understand that ratings were very inaccurate back then. Several numbers were intentionally on the low side. On top of that, there were so many variations available for those who knew the ropes on ordering back then that it's really hard to say what was faster.

The hard fact on the Hemi is that it was VERY expensive and was not one of the most streetable engines. Reliability is over in the Buick court.

Actually, there was a production engine that was a better design for power than both. It's just much more rare. The company that refused to give up on performance until directly threatened was Pontiac. The 455SD engine was capable of more horsepower than the Hemi - it came stock with inconel valves, forged pistons, etc., and high-flow heads that actually breathed BETTER than the Hemi. However, they didn't get the memo on the emissions and it failed miserably. They were told by GM brass to drop the engine. Rather than do so, they were determined to meet emissions. They scrambled to detune the engine. The lowest they could get it to was 310hp - SAE NET (equivalent to about 390-400 gross - in low compression - detuned state)! Then they lied and listed it at 295hp to make it appear much lower. It was officially killed at the end of the year. Only a few hundred were ever made, making them too rare and expensive for strip use.

It'll never really be settled, nor does it really matter. There are now much smaller engines that outrun the monsters of that era.

Thanks, but I'll keep my Buick.

Hey! It's the torque, stupid!!!

 

It's all in fun. They all deserve utmost respect. My personal opinion is that the GS and the GSX are absolutely the classiest looking of them all; especially in convertible form. (A ragtop guy talking)

 

I'm a Pontiac guy but I'm not into the F-bodies, so I may be saying some stuff that's not exactly accurate but I want to clarify some things, among others . . .

I do not know where you got that info, but there was no Six Pack for 1969. I am willing to bet that the article was a 440-4. I don't think they usually run that fast, but they are great engines. I think the fastest they typically ran was 13.9.

I seriously doubt that. Don't forget, the GS was a Skylark. The GS had to deal with what was given to it as a car for the masses. The GTO is no different, aside of the Endura nose, but I doubt anyone would call the GTO low-key. But, like the GS, aside of some deluxe trim, it was not really different from its pedestrian siblings from the outside.

I think that Buick was just a more conservate company and the purity of the GS reflects that. I think Olds was a conservative company too, but they were more brave in the image department.

I think this is silly. Imagine if Ma Mopar tried to make the Hemi a totally steetable engine. Imagine if Ford tried to make the Boss 429 run without changing the carb and exhaust manifolds. I don't think any brand has any superior advantage at this point . . . but still, the Hemi is what everything else is compared to.

This is apples and oranges. For one thing, the Hemi was out of production for two years by the time the SD came out. I also think the Hemi was rated at 350 net hp - more than the 310 rated for the '73 SD. Pontiac pulled some emissions trick with the EPA with the cam, I believe, but the EPA caught them and made them fix the problem. That reduced the hp to 290, which is the only engine to go out the door (although they kept the 310 rating for 1973). They made around 300 SD cars in 1973, and about 1000 for 1974 - enough to see some racing today, if youi've ever seen the Pure Stock races.

As a side note, about 100 SDs were Formulas (Formulae?) for the two years.

 

Josh- I'm not trying to "correct" you, but the info I have here says the ZL-1 was a 1969 model. Yes they made two ZL-1 Vettes that year- this has been discussed a lot in other threads. I think that website just made a typo and put down "68" instead of "69". That year, Chevy also offered the 427 cid al. block in Camaros- the famous COPO Camaros, which incidentally were probably better than Vettes for drag racing.
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Where did this "455 SD had more hp" thing come from, I wonder? Sure the SD Trans Am was a cool car, but not only were a lot of SDs delivered without the SD engine due to a strike, but the RA IV 400 was a better engine according to anything I've read. It was introduced in early '73 and was rated at 310 net hp @ 400 rpm according to the editors of Consumer Guide. It had the cam from the RA IV to start with, but emissions concerns made them re-cam it, reducing power to 290 hp. They go on to say the heads (based on the RA IV heads) flowed more air than the Hemi head. I have no SD performance stats at present, but the non SD 455 was tested by car and Driver in '72, and they recorded a 13.9 second 1/4 at 104.6 mph. That 455 HO was rated at 300 hp at 4000 rpm, so it's not too far off from the SD's rating.

The 400 RA IV was rated to 370 hp at 5500 rpm. That's gross HP but let's say you take 50 hp off as an arbitrary nod to put the SD and the RA IV on a level playing field. My money would say the higher winding and torquier RA IV (the SD was rated at 310 hp at 4000 rpm vs. the RA IV's "320"-if you knock off 50 hp for the sake of argument due to net hp ratings- at 5500 (redline), and the SD had 390 lb/ft at 3200 rpm in 1973, vs. the RA IV's 445 lb/ft at 3900 rpm) would be quicker than the SD if you installed both engines in the same car and went to the track. I can't quantify that of course but looking at the numbers I can't see a clear indication that the SD was better than a RA IV. The SD is said to be a much more durable engine though. The stats between a '70 RA IV and a '70 426 Hemi indicate to me that the RA IV was a comparable, but not superior, engine to the 426 Hemi, the 1970 426 Hemi being rated at 425 gross hp and 490 lb/ft torque at 4000 rpm vs. the RA IV's 370 gross hp at 5500 and 445 lb/ft at 3900 rpm.

I'd love to have a '73 SD455 Trans Am in Lucerne Blue but I can't say that it had an engine clearly better in terms of power than a 426 Hemi, based on any info I have at hand. If you put a '71 Challenger 426 Hemi 4 speed and a '73 SD 455 TA in front of me and forced me to choose which I wanted more, and it was mine, otherwise you'd blow my head off with a bazooka, I'd be a dead man because I couldn't choose.

 

yeah i just check 69 was the year

 

Of course it is. Car for car and pound for pound, the Grand National will wax it everytime. Oh, you meant a V8 Buick. :laugh: :laugh: Now, that's where the BS gets real deep.

What do you think would happen if the FAST guys let the GN/T-Type participate. All the BB boys would be crying all the way to the rules makers.

 

JOHN, If you are so into V-6's, why do we see that smurk on you face when your drivin' that 455 STAGE 1 CONVERTABLE????

 

It's not that I am so into V6's, I am so into Buicks. I have a big smurk :laugh: on when I drive the V8 convertible because it is a nice Buick. I would take on any Hemi and probably win more than lose.

Also, if Buick or any of the aftermarket Buick motor guru's would build a V8 that would make the power of the V6, it would have found a home in the Riv.

Plus it's fun sometimes to stir up the pot. :Brow:

 

I'd bet the pot is well stirred now:Brow: As an owner of a Stage1 and an '87 Turbo T, I always find myself thinking the "what if" Buick invested the motorsports development on the 455 like they did with the V6. Any arguments about Hemi vs Stage1 would probably be the only argument. Makes wish Buick had dropped a Stage2 bomb on the masses. BTW, Opeltwinturbo, I never got to properly thank you for firing up your compressor down in Oklahoma so we could get Luke Silkey's grey TType fixed for elims. Lots of hands in that fire and I just want to let all these people know that all the good words people say about you are true. Thanks again, and I hope to see you again down there, maybe with the Riv???!!!!:grin: