I remember, in the early '60s the light metallic colors, especially on Mopars, that peeled off in sheets as well. I think a lot had to do with the poor prep at the factory in many of these cases.
Vintage Car Law The Definitive Collector Car Market Weblog Subscribe to Vintage Car LawRSS FeedSubscribe to Vintage Car LawComments Home About Me Rebodied Cars what to do June 29, 2012 Posted in News Rebodies: Whats the big deal??? (By: Bryan W. Shook, Esquire) BShook@shooklegal.com 717-884-9010 Ive been getting quite a few calls lately seeking information on re-bodied vehicles. The term rebody is a term of art used throughout our hobby to denote a vehicle whose original factory body has been replaced with another donor body. The donor body is then given the original bodys VIN, serial number, data card, trim tag, cowl tag, etc. and then usually and most unfortunately sold to an unsuspecting buyer as the original, real deal automobile. This problem is complicated when the rebodied car is an air car which did not exist prior to the rebody. Specifically what happens is someone dreams up a car or has the paperwork from a desirable car and makes it from thin air using the donor body as the starting point. All of a sudden, the car has pedigree, provenance and history if the builder can dream up a good enough story. This is problematic as you can plainly see. There are several legal issues when it comes to a rebodied automobile. The most important issue is whether or not the rebody was disclosed to you when you purchased the vehicle. If the rebody was not disclosed to you how can it be said you negotiated with the seller on equal footing. Another issue comes from the fact that rarely are rebodys done properly. Were the police notified of the body replacement as required under some state laws? Did the seller give you two Certificates of Titles? (Remember the best bodies come from good cars and in todays day and age, good cars get restored was the body stolen and the subject vehicle the product of a chop shop) Did the seller give you photographs of the original body to evidence the condition of the original body? Do you have confirmation that the original body has been destroyed? (This is usually where the State Police come in as this is where the stories start about two cars registered under the same VIN) Without the safeguards outlined above, you can never been shore that the vehicle you purchased truly belongs to you. Under the law you would have a breach of the warranty of title claim if any third party were to ever come after you claiming you own the body to their car. The problem is that if you know the car has been rebodied and you cant provide the above information to a new purchaser you could be just as liable as the seller who sold the car to you should you not disclose what you know to a prospective purchaser. If you have a rebodied car or think you do, this is a serious matter. Rebodied cars can be nearly unsaleable and always have questions. There was way to rectify the situation and there are ways to unwind the transaction which unknowingly left you with the rebody. In any event, please call me and we can discuss your options and to what extent your car may have been rebodied. Attorney Bryan W. Shook is not only a devoted automotive enthusiast, but is also an experience litigator who devotes a large portion of his law practice to helping other collectors and hobbyists understand todays market and protect their automotive investments. Attorney Bryan W. Shook is a seasoned automotive collector and restorer and as such brings real world experience and firsthand knowledge to the table for his clients throughout the world. Although Bryan Shook is headquartered in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania (close proximity to Carlisle and Hershey), Attorney Bryan Shook is available anywhere for consultation, advice, and information, most times, on as short as a days notice. If youd like more information about this topic or would like to speak with Attorney Bryan W. Shook please email him at bshook@shooklegal.com or by phone at 717-884-9010. More information can be found at Http://www.vintagecarlaw.com. Bid with Knowledge; Buy with Confidence Vintage Car Law Tags: air car, Attorney Brian Shook, Attorney Bryan Shook, Attorney Bryan W. Shook, Attorney Shook, Barrett-, Barrett-Jackson, Bryan Shook, Bryan W. Shook, Bryan W. Shook Esquire, Camp Hill attorney, Car Attorney, car fraud, car investments, car law, car litigation, car title claim, central pennsylvania attorney, certificate of title, classic car market, Collector Car Attorney, Collector Car Fraud, collector car market analyzation, collector car mispresentation, collector car misrepresentation, cowl tag, current car market, deceipt, declaration of ownership, donor body, engine restamping, fake cowl tag, forged numbers, fraud, fraud attorney, GM F Body, Harrisburg Car Lawyer, misrepresentation, ownership of old car, pennsylavnia, rebodied automobile, rebodied Camaro, Rebodied Hemi, rebody, rebody fraud, rebodyed, restamped numbers, Super Sport, tampered VIN, title claim, UCC, VIN, VIN tampering, Vintage Automotive, Warranty of title, where is my old car, Z28 clones
I like this reply. I think a lot of the question has to do with "why" it's done. If there is any element of deceit, misrepresentation, or profit motive, it is wrong. But, If it is to save the "soul" of the car, as described below, and in a few other examples cited here, I think it is the right thing to do.
Well, what about Chaz Bono? What happens when you undergo addadicktomy surgery? Isn't that essentially "swapping VIN's"?
Brian, you spend all together too much time thinking about this... But let's change the story, just a little.. Here's Brian's post, with a twist.. -------------------------------------- Believe me, I understand. Sounds like we need a vacation. Here we go. A bunch of us are hopping back into the ole Tri-Shield time machine to a sunny workday @ the Freemont, California GM assembly plant. We've secured a tour and the date is April 2, 1971. At the beginning of the line we watch as the various parts are attached to the frame. I.E. A arms, Crossmembers, Rear suspension yada yada We leave that structure and enter a taller building. Chris spots an Oldsmobile engine in a full size chassis. Jim notices a blue Pontiac V8 in another full size chassis. In between the Olds and Pontiac chassis on the line, there is what appears to be an A-body, non boxed frame, with a Chebbie 6 in it. We all ponder for a moment. Then a blue Bonneville body comes hoisting from above and workers set it carefully on the frame with the blue V8 just in front of us. A few minutes later the next body by Fisher appears. You know the song and dance. It's a painted assembly - this one in GM code 43 Lime Green with a white painted top. As it approaches we can see it has a black headliner and that it's a sedan. We can tell it's a non a/c car from the already installed heater box just as the V.I.N. lies under all that clear glass. Lower it comes. We all recognize the Make & Model of this one! --------------------------------------- But right before it comes over the completed chassis, Joe, the crane operator, sneezes, and hits the "release" button... the body shell crashes to the floor with a horrendous noise and shakes the building. Glass and debris fly everywhere.. The line stops, and here comes the line super with a cloud of expletives trailing him.. a quick consult with the Fisher authorities confirm that "that one is a goner", and the chassis is pulled from the line.. the body sent to the recycling bin. We discuss this among ourselves.. Andy feels now that the entire conglomeration of parts has to be scrapped, and a completely new car will be developed, from the VIN numbers on up.. because surely you cannot replace the body shell.. that's the car's soul.. One of the Fisher guys overhears us in this discussion, and later recounts it to his fellow assembly men in the body shop... Serious eye rolls are followed by Tony, one of the trim guys, yelliing out "quit talking about a bunch of geeks on the assembly floor, and help me install this damn spoiler so we can all go to lunch..." But the story is not over.... No, the chassis was not scrapped, another body was created for it. As if by magic.. And of course us Buick guys, geeks that we are, are now back at the plant, several weeks later, to witness this rebirth.. The chassis, now re-sequenced into production rolls up, and low an behold, another identical code 43 conglomeration of Fisher body and sheetmetal appears.. amazing.. and is placed on the frame, and away it goes... The pure moment of birth... but was it.. Wait a minute here buster... who re bodied this car? Date code does not match.. panel dates are wrong... someone swapped the vins, stamped numbers on it, and created a new trim tag.. Where's the FBI when you need them? :af: We bring this up to the line supervisor, as we watch this all unfold. Brian is adamant that is not the same car, and deception is occurring here, this is not the pure birth we were looking to witness, but instead, some kind of Fischer Frankenstein has been disgorged from the holy assembly line. The line supervisor, fearing for his safety, grabs a handy 2x4 and whacks Brian on the side of the head, and he crumples to the floor.. security escorts us from the premises.. In the parking lot, we reel in agony... the whole state of our existence is now in question... OH, THE HUMANITY... Now imagine it's not a green six banger... it's a GSX... how does the equation now change folks? Is a GSX somehow give a "spirit"... is there some ritualistic ceremony preformed, in which at the "moment of conception" the heavens open up and a beam of light shines down? is there a Holy GSX assembly line, blessed workers, and sacramental steel somewhere? Or were these winged wonders assembled right next to our lowly green six banger. When someone 45 years from now spots the wrong date codes on the panels, and pronounces that the sin of "rebody" was committed here, and goes off in search of a suitable Yardarm to hang the offender from... how could he know he is wrong.. this was the factory, using exactly the same parts as the orginal body, built by the same guys, on the same machines, from the same material. And when Stan, at Big Slim's body shop, trying to build the best car he can for his customer, does the same thing, how is it any different that what the factory would have done. Replace damaged parts with identical ones. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a Buick Skylark 2 door post body and it's now in the process of being mated to the frame that had a Chebbie 6 right before our very eyes. Yes, it still has to get other parts installed, not the least of which is the front doghouse. But, for that instant, it is two parts or "higher assemblies" being mated together. Does the body need the chassis to be a drive-able car? Of course. But that shell delivered from above is the soul baby, delivered by GM the creator. A Buick is born. That is the moment of conception. We as a group speculate what Buick dealership it might be delivered to, what state, who will buy it, and how many years it will last until it's demise. But no matter how many miles it goes down the road it will be recognized as a Buick. Can somebody replace the right quarter panel in 1977 because of an accident? Can somebody in 1983 rob it of it's 6 cylinder and put a 350 Buick in it? Can somebody in 1985 decide to swap it from an automatic to a four speed? Can somebody repaint red in 1991? Can somebody trying to restore a GS part it out in 1998 for it's perfect front fenders and toss it out to pasture? Could that somebody then sell off every last bolted on and screwed on part from 2002-2006 including the frame? Could that somebody then call a wrecker to haul off the sad looking shell to the scrap yard in 2008? Could you be walking through the scrap yard on a cool day in 2011 and pause just long enough to say to yourself, "I'll be darn, an old Skylark"? That's soul ------------------------------------------------- My point is this gentleman, we are placing human characteristics on a conglomeration of sheetmetal, glass rubber and iron. That's silly. Not that I have paid attention to it, but does someone really have engineering drawings that call out fundamental differences in the frame and body for a GS, vs a Skylark?.. I have never seen or heard of such a thing, and in practice, I have not witnessed fundamental differences, and I have had more than a few GS and GSX cars apart, as well as Skylarks, and they appear to be identical, save for hole punches and part numbers. More importantly, in my opinion, we are drawing the value and price line at the wrong place.. The valuable cars are the survivors in my opinion. All original sheetmetal, wearing the same paint since the day it was built. Engine never opened up, sheet still on top of the gas tank. It appears in all it's factory assembled sloppiness.. Those are the gems, that should command the high prices. And the respect. Anything else, is to me, just a conglomeration of factory and aftermarket parts, often skillfully molded together to recreate what once was, and is no more. The value of that, is, as always, whatever the market will bear. In regard to the OP question, on GSX 539.. with the body and frame gone, your just left with parts you can use to re-create that car. The original car is gone, not unlike if you replace every panel and the frame, because they are all rusted out. In both cases, what we have is a re-creation of a GSX. Call it what you will , but it's not the original car. I would call it a clone. The freedom to express this opinion, that not being in the restoration business anymore provides is, in a word, refreshing. Now I am back to the engine shop, and the hot rod shop, where I belong... you's folks can continue the discussion. But as always, I must ask, if I replace parts with exactly the same ones, then exactly what deception have I committed? Only if the process was not disclosed does a crime exist. Since I am writing and invoice for it, then I certainly am not hiding it. And even then, someone who feels that a patched up "original" body tub is superior in some way to a rust free factory original, and somehow they are getting shortchanged with that rust free tub... well, I don't know, just makes me shake my head.. Goes back to the whole mythological importance placed by some on sheet metal. JW
Very Funny JW! This stuff happened - they would have re-stamped the frame. Not sure if I'm @ liberty to elaborate, but suffice to say a similar situation happened and a block was re-stamped @ the assy plant with a new VIN. It was an "odd" GS & it took a while, but they dropped it in the next one like it down the line and the numbers didn't add up, but it was the "born with" engine.
Rebody and do it up nice. Then make a driver out of it. Modify it. Aluminum heads. Headers. Etc. Or make it original style. If the body was that far gone then change it. The numbers can live on. The numbers make the car. Look at the '57 Chevy bodies you can buy. Look at the complete 1st gen Camaro Dynacorn bodies available. Builders stamp the numbers and attach tags and it makes it new again. You can't beat an original low mile survivor. But how many are there ? I see nothing wrong with a rebody. These cars are going on 50 years old. It's not like you have a stolen car and change numbers to hide that. To me it's part of restoring one.
The question is, which numbers? Just the numbers on the VIN tag, or all the numbers including date codes on all the individual parts of the car? From the voting it appears most of us subscribe to the latter. I assume that any car is a mixture of original plus varying degrees of donor parts, repro parts and aftermarket parts---some correct, some close, and some totally incorrect. I don't see any combination as morally or ethically "right" or "wrong", but a matter of purpose and constraints. The problems start when a seller falsely represents and/or a buyer lacks necessary knowledge.
I'm familiar with this car from when it was for sale last year, but have a question. Does anyone know the current owner? If so, did he purchase this car knowing it had been re-bodied/framed with a 71 Skylark? I'm certain the seller knew when he sold the car to him, but don't know if the seller knew back when he bought the car. It will be interesting to see how and where this car ends up as a result of this thread.
all somebody has to do is call BRYAN SHOOK and get to the people that didn't give a disclaimer heck if he had a booth at BJ he'd have at least a 50% customer satisfaction rate
Sounds like someone almost paid too much for a car.Now if the asking price was say 1/2 from what it was originally would he have considered himself stuck? If this cars vin # is still intact I say its still alive and will be for a long time.Which would you rather be stuck with? this GSX in one form or another or a 71 skylark striped out like a GSX?
Sounds like the car was in a pretty bad accident at some point in it's life. Unfortunately, without the original frame/body, it's value will always be much less than an original car. And that alone may make the cost of restoration far in excess of the value of the vehicle.
Yes, your correct Phil, and value should take a big hit. I should also mention that in a case like this, I would never condone using the GSX vin tag, title or paperwork.. that car is gone. It's a 71 Skylark with a GSX drivetrain/goodies, and should be valued and represented as such. If done well, it could bring a decent price, as it may be as close as many of us ever get to owning a GSX. If I ever did something like this, I would take the GSX vin/ Trim tag and mount them on a plaque, along with Wayne Roberts documentation to prove it's a GSX drivetrain (assuming the numbers are still on the engine and trans). JW
