Modern Marvels on History Channel Drag Racing

Anyone see this show yesterday? Made some interesting points as follows
1. The first hot rodders took 4 CYLINDER Model T's and souped them up and called them Hot Roadsters or Hot Rods for short. Reason: They were cheap parts were plentiful etc etc
2. Cut forward to a guy talking about why he likes to soup up Honda's
Reason: They are cheap and parts are plentiful etc etc.

Now I totally agree on the Ricer thing the big wing , the coffee can etc etc but... the guys who are serioulsy trying to extract horsepower from 4 cylinder motors are just the same guys who were cutting and chopping model T's in the day.

Im sure there were dudes back in the day who just put flames on their model T's to make them go faster .


As you can see from my avatar my teg is bone stock ( yes I have an exhaust and an intake and aftermarket 15" ( stock size) wheels ) THe exhaust was the smallest I could find and only has a 4" tip (Apexi WS) and is actually engineered for the car and looks discreet, has a mellow sound . The intake worked out cheaper as I can reuse the K+N.
The car has 250,000 miles on it , original clutch , have changed the timing belt a few times (precautionary), never taken the heads off , still winds out to 8100rpm ( I love that sound btw), still corners nicely and is just a fun car to drive. And yes I get about 30mpg



Also in the show was a guy who was developing a new top fuel funny car based around a 4 banger ,using an integra body style. Very sophisticated technology using a duel feed Nitro and Alchohol system. His reasoning was to cut the cost of competing . Also with the restrictions on Top Fuel coming in perhaps this could be the wave of the future . He was about 45 yo Im guessing and was claiming about 4000hp out of the motor

Good show , the one about cop chase techology was cool too

 

Everything is relative. Honda relative to Buick hot rods... lets compare...

Plentiful, yes. Cheap? Ummm no.

My 79 Century spits out a 100% reliable, and streetable 480 horse and 560 torque. The car (A wagon I might add) holds at .84 in the skidpad. Custom interior, including 8-gauge instrument package and I have 8 rims with various tires for the car. I've done nothing special, just built a standard by-the-numbers 455 and made the usual G-body tweaks. It's a pure, streetable, highwayable, hot rod.

Total cost to date, including purchase price of the car: 14K USD

I bought a brand new alternator last week, $35. New tires: $175. Bearings/Rotors were $56/side. The Honda Accord I worked on for a buddy had an Alternator go $280, and bearings/hub were $98 a pop. As for parts availability, there's more stuff at the local wrecker for G-bodies than any other car, remmeber that most G-body parts are compatable and they were made in massive numbers for years. As for purchase price, a used Honda will run you at least 3-4K, whereas a good used G-body is down around 1K.

Being cheap, easy to modify cars then relatively speaking the proof just is not there. The G-body, with it's large base of cars, easy to modify frame and RWD format, and huge variety of engines and kits is a far beter candidate for the point you are trying to make.

Lots of ricers try to justify thier cars in the larger performance world, but what for? Simply put, import 4-cylinders are in thier own class, and they do not compare very well with Hot Rods or Muscle Cars. The basic package is just too different...FWD -vs- RWD, frame -vs- unibody, displacement -vs- overpressure, Apples -vs- oranges. I wouldn't try to compare my Wagon to a sportbike or an F-18, there's simply no point. If you want to compare costs though, please feel free to find a Honda with similar performance to the above

Now, that said, don't get me wrong, if you're having fun and getting performance with your Honda I'm all for it! Kudos on the sleeper format BTW. I'm all for the different classes of performance, import machines included. As for comparing, I'll stick with hard numbers and keep it within the classes.

 

I understand your point as well, but for 14K you can make a CRX or Civic hatch stomp the you know what out of your wagon in every performance figure you can think of. In stock form, a CRX will easily best you in cornering and braking... and weighing around 2,000lbs fully loaded it wouldn't take too much power to get it up to your speed either - especially with 12k in the motor. I'm not bashing you, but that 14K goes a looooong way in the Honda aftermarket. Used parts are a dime a dozen because every other car you see on the road is Civic.

 

I wanna know when all that ricer technology is going to trickle UP to the big engine cars....(wings and things not included).

 

I just cant stand ricers especialy the ones with those stupid looking fins.I work part time at auto zone and i'm sorry to say that they sold out.I remember after the movie fast and furious every ricer was coming to buy intakes/ headers etc. I laugh every time someone comes in and wants to know if bosch spark plugs will make his car go faster. I then tell them why dont you go buy a chevy w/ a 350 in it so even if we're closed you can go to walmart to buy a part for it.

 

What exactly is "ricer technology"? If you mean more powerful, more efficient, and more reliable engines... the new LS6 fits the bill, among many others... like 60 valve Ferrari v12 engines. :Brow:

 

Actually, if your plugs are gapped incorrectly and/or have the wrong heat range... then yes, correct plugs will make you go faster. :Smarty:

 

Might want to grab a cold one, this'll be long :beer

Weeeeeeellll not so much. If that's true you'll have to explain how I beat that boosted up 14 sec CRX at the test N tune last week. You can also explain it to the half dozen Civics I bested in the Red Deer autocross in 99 (4th out of 22). There are several dozen imports from the Cornwall Rum-Runners rallye (1st place 2 years running out of 48 & 54 cars respectively) that would also like an explanation. When I do lose out to an import at the drag strip, it's almost always to one < 5 years old with 10-15K in mods. Old CRX's? Can't even recall a loss to one, though a 240 gave me a good beating some years ago.

CRX Cornering .81

Now that's for a brand new car, but lets assume the $2000 CRX can still handle that.

Wagon currently holds on at .84 with a lot of alignment work to go. I had .92 with my old 11" setup and should best that right now. Springs, bars, shocks, arms, brakes, bags, tires, and wheels were needed to get there. Total cost: $1800.

Ah, careful now, I have 14K in the WHOLE CAR. That's the complete project cost measured over 12+years. There's only $6200 in the engine upgrade project from this past year (Longblock, heads, distrib, carb, and headers). So lets start with a $6200 budget and let's say a mild 12 second run with Wagon's measured race weight of 3100lbs (including driver) and I'll even give you the CRX using the curb weight (no driver) of 2000lbs (the above specs site lists 2174 lbs)

Horsepower to Weight Calculator

3100 pounds and can complete a 1/4 mile in about 12.0 seconds. That means 354.57 HP at the wheels, and about 460.94 HP at the flywheel. (I make more than this on dyno but what the heck, we're playing with theory)

2000 pounds and can complete a 1/4 mile in about 12.0 seconds. That means 228.76 HP at the wheels, and about 297.38 HP at the flywheel.

OK, so a CRX needs to make 300 flywheel and then 230 wheel without breaking CV joints or blowing up. The Wagon is a relaible, streetable engine, so we need to build up the same thing.

Let's assume we've already bought a DOHC 16V VTEC CRX which makes 160@7600RPM. We need to add 140HP safely. 15-18 lbs of boost should do it.

Head Rebuild: $550

Turbo Kit:$4500

Ball Bearing Upgrade for turbo: $650

Rebuild longblock :$1300

...well... we're overbudget by $800 but it made it.

Uh oh! Forgot to port the heads, roller rockers, up the injectors, turbo/IC piping, headers, boost controller, wires, plugs, bigger rad, oil cooler, and new chip. Let's say a miracle happens and the Honda can get all this done for $1500. We also have costs to beef up the frame to actually hold 300HP, put on 300Hp axleshafts, add a 300HP clutch, stronger engine mounts, springs/swaybar and shocks that can handle 300HP. Let's say another $1200 miracle here, then the CRX would just be at the Wagon's level in terms of cornering and output... for $3000 more.

I assumed cheap parts with no extras like wiring needed, and that all the "advertised" HP gains worked . Wagon's costs are added up in a spreadsheet from actual reciepts, and my HP numbers are dyno verified. Estimates are typically short, and I baised pretty hard for the CRX and it still lost. But don't take my word for it, lets see what someone who's an expert in building a 12 second CRX actually needed:

http://www.zex.com/Community/Projects/1989crx/

Took a LOT more than what I listed to get to 12's, let's try again, maybe it was bad luck:

http://www.superstreetonline.com/featuredvehicles/3319/

12 Second Honda for 20k, 40k project total.

What about the regular import community?

Racing discussion forum

...no help there either.

I understand your theory, but I'm talking results. I've owned/own imports and can really compare to costs. Having rebuilt my buddies 89 Supra engine for nearly 12k to get only 410HP/360 torque, -vs- mild 455's that make 400+ horse and 500+ torque I just don't see how the imports are cheaper. Maintenance parts for my imports are typically double the cost of my domestic parts, and aftermarket upgrades are higher than my Buick for wheels.

Where are the savings? Wrecker parts are plentiful in either case, it's rare I can't find what I need at the local pick n pull. The imports need very expensive turbo kits to match my power levels, but my Wagon only needs relatively cheap suspension upgrades to match the cornering skidpads of smaller cars.

I want to see the actual breakdown on this 14k CRX that's under 12, holds a .84, is street legal, and a daily driver before I believe it's that easy, because I sure don't see `em at the track on the weekends!

Project breakdown:
Car purchase price: $500 (I bought it for 1$ but I always account the full book value)
Engine project, carb to pan, rad to firewall: $6200
Transmission rebuild, including driveshaft: (500K kms on the old one, it was blown): $1800
Suspension/brakes/wheels: $1800
Blown posi replacement: $800
Custom interior + 8 gauge package: $1200
Exhaust: $600
Various reciepts and misc performance junk over the years: $1200

Glad to hear it, I'm not going for bashing either there's no point. Boards are for discussions and friendly arguments. I don't expect you to agree with my points, but I had to refute your claims about poor old wagon getting kicked around. Please excuse my lengthy response but I love a good argument. :TU:

 

How much horsepower does a 455 have stock out of a '73 model buick/ lowest compression? I seen one for sale in a magazine that said it came out of a '73 riv and it was supposedly low comp., and it was for sale for 400 dollars completely rebuilt, looked pretty good, and how much horsepower does a honda have from a 4 or 6 banger, and i'll bet the engines aren't cheaper than that and not as much torque either stock w/ out the hair dryers and stuff. p

 

Why didn't anybody mention the fact that Buick racing legend Tommy Ivo was on the show. I wonder if the rumor that he is building a repro of his T-roadster is true...

I'll bet he's a lot of fun to hang out with. And not to talk with about Hollywood, showboat, or Prudhomme either. (He's got to be sick of talking about those subjects)

 

Atx, maybe the forums over at superhonda.com would suit you a little better than this board.

 

Over here in the UK you can still build US V8 power cheaper than either Japanese or most European brands. The only ones which are cheapo to build are the small Fords and to get genuinely big power out of those starts to get really expensive too.

A 160 - 170 BHP Ford SOHC costs 1500 or so for the long block then add 1000 to cover distributor, Weber carbs, intake, etc. makes 2500 (about $3750)

What kind of a small block Chebbie can you build for that? Thats why the Chebbie motor powers about 90% of hot rods in the UK!

My Buick 340 was more expensive to build than a more common brand as everything had to be UPS'd specially from the USA but I still had the motor done for less than the cost of doing a stock refurb on a UK domestic - the workshop I used for some of the work just had a Vauxhall in which had cost 2900 (about $4200) for a stock rebuild.

OK theres some peppy imports, and some can get the basic tuning done cheap to make them fast on the street. Fine, and the economy side of things doesn't work so well when you have to pay 2000 or more even for a decent G Body because they have to be imported from the USA (shipping is like $1200)

I see what some of my friends have invested in their cars and they are no way as fast and I'm thinking :error:

A decent replacement clutch costs 375? ($550 or so) I can get a good torque converter and a shift kit and more for my TH400 for that!

Its down to what you want to drive though.

Pure and simple. A bit of diversity so you get something different to shut down at the track

 

Alistair makes a good point. If best HP per dollar is the objective, we should junk all of our Buick engines and be building Chevies.

We spend a little more to build Buicks, and some kids do the same with Hondas. At least they aren't spending all of their money on meth....they deserve all the moral support we can give them.

 

Gotta agree 100%. With $6200 into a chev powerplant for my Buick I'd be turning 10's!

As for the second point, a car guy is a car guy wether it's a Honda or a Buick owner you can tell `em a mile away. The posers are also visible a mile away, wether they're Honda or Buick. Building cars takes drive, knowledge, and sheer bloody work, gotta respect that no matter what the brand.

 

Thanks Leviathan great point
And thats the point , perhaps what would be a fun thing to measure is not so much how much power/torque you can get out of a motor but how much ( in % TERMS ) did you improve over the stock numbers ( measured on a Dyno of course , not based on Marketing BS).
That would be a good measure of your engine building skills
Thats the whole point of working on engines whether they are 2stroke 125cc (7.6ci) 2L(122ci) 4 cylinders , 3.8L(231ci) v6's 7L(427ci) V8s or 6L(366ci) V12's
:Smarty:


I like my Tegra , I like my Buick, they are completely different and thats the point for me :TU:

 

...well to refine that a bit, maybe setting a performance goal and then achieving it with design followed by good mechanical work. Being able to say I'm going to make 450HP with xxxx, then do xxxx and actually get 450, that's something.

...and "pimpin' ma riiiiiide" does NOT count as a performance goal.

 

Great posts Leviathan. I have know this and tried to politely & respectful inform some of the misinformed before and its not eazy to be as convincing off the cuff. I am all for hot rodding no matter the make just that some list the wrong reasons as to why they picked what they did for doing what they say they want to do. The BBB vs BBC Grand Sport vs Super Sport is a perfect example of that. We build them because we want to and like certain aspects of the car over the other not neccessarily just because bang for the buck its the cheaper or faster etc. So I see no reason others should not be alowed to do that with their civic or whater. Its just that when some kid says he going to build a Honda or X FWD import because its the fastest/best bang for the buck and knows no better it makes me ill. Hmmn ATX has not responded has he.

I have nothing against imports other than comparing some of the facts as you have here. I have seriously considered and shopped for a gen 4 Supra and early 91ish DSM car to be used as a platform to build my hot street car. But I eventually decided to do big block in a g-body project for many of the same reasons you have. I chose a different power plant which has its pros & cons did not choose to do a wagon etc but built it on the same principals. Mine is not as far along as yours, no body work or pretty paint on mine yet, no big brakes yet, but she running and a hell of alot of fun. I am cheap but not stupid cheap I avoid the boyd and cut alot of corners but try not to cut things where x would be money well spent. At least relative & consistant to my project & its performance & reliability goals. Its not faster than my GN, its both better and worse in some respects but mostly it is fast reliable fun and entirely different than my turbo v6 even though they are both g-bodys with overdrives with 3.42s etc. Oh yea its a running car with a completely fresh motor fresh built OD transmission HD rear etc that is reliable & safe for $5,200. Thats car motor tranny etc. Granted I am cheap planned well did most of my own work etc but it a mid/high 11 second capable, reliable, useable car.

I printed out what you wrote for the benefit of future discussions with my 14 years old sons buddys who just don't know any better. With there age & experience its hard for them to discern what is realistic and what is not with regards to The Fast & Furious etc. (The Slow & Delerious) My son understands to some degree in part because he has ridden in the seat of 11/12 second cars but most his age or even 40 year olds have not.

 

I haven't responded to this thread because I have been on a camping trip. I'm back now, so lets begin.

First off I am not about to argue about how much money it takes to make this or that run this or that time. It doesn't take a moron to know that a large displacement engine in a RWD platform is a better place to start. If you really want to talk bang for the buck you should look no further than a Fox body Stang... preferably a coupe.

What I am traying to say is that 14K is a lot of money to spend in the Honda world. Leviathan spouted out a bunch of numbers from a google search he did, but the majority of it is BS. Lets take a look...

Rebuilding a head... one that is only a couple of years old? Give me a break.

Rebuild the block? Sure, forged pistons and some good rods will be needed for boost or the hose.

Turbo kit... $4,500... as if you can't build one yourself for half that (been there, done that).

Then you go into things like rockers, header(s) and such for the Honda... I wasn't aware that we were talking about a pushrod V-block.

Basically you can do most of the work yourself on a quick import, just like a domestic. Yes, cheap parts are out there... just like domestics. Want really fast for cheap? Get a sportbike... nuff said.

 

I prefer a 3k 1983 GN :grin:

 

Spending a little less than 14K, a friend of mine who owns a honda speed shop is looking at 8 or 9 second passes and is running what amounts to a tube frame in his car. That price also included the cost of the rods he needed to have custom made, one of which let go during an *ahem* impromptu testing session in which he was faster than a gsxr 1000 by half a car length. Now before everybody starts jumping in and saying he's an insider and he gets the parts cheaper, he doesn't but his labor is his own. let's break it down.

To build a tube frame buick drag car it will cost you about $14K if you do a lot of the work yourself. You probably wont have fuel injection and may have a power adder like supercharging or nitrous. If you don't do the work yourself you are probably looking at a $30 to $50K for a turn key drag car. Sure someone is going to argue that a tube frame drag car can be built for less, but lets be serious, how many tube frame turn key drag cars do you see selling for under $14K? if they could be built for less the world would be flooded with them as it would be an easy way to make a living.

The largest outlay of cash in the import racing world is on labor. From where I sit there seem to be far less guys and gals with imports choosing to handle at least one significant job on their car, than there are in the domestic racing world. A guy building a street strip 60-70s camaro will rebuild the suspension but farm out the motor work, or build the engine but farm out the body work, a lot of street strip hondas will just be dropped off at the shop and left. This makes a big difference in the price when you coinsider that the labor rate is $65 -85 an hour - most people don't make that much. A friend of mine who is an aircraft mechanic has a $5000 civic that runs 11's on a turbo. He built it himself out of used and yard parts and has not paid anybody to do any work on his car. He runs the number just fine and doesn't have half what i have in my 12 sec GTO into his car. The same car being built wholly by a shop would cost twice that.

I also think that the initial go fast parts cost more than a domestic. the advantage of a rwd v-8 car is that there is very little in the way of external power adders necessary to make some fairly respectable numbers. Once you get into new heads, however you begin to catch up to the honda guys because you have to buy two heads to their one (the labor on head work will be cheaper on the honda for the same reason). By the time you get to adding a power adder like a turbo or a supercharger you are looking at the same cost for the kit and installation. however the civic owner' will probably buy a turbo before you buy a supercharger, why? because the civic engine is already fairly well tuned from the factory and there is not that many cheap things he can do to make a significant jump in hp necessary. The reason we get such gret gains from small tuning things (carbs, exhausts, cams, timing) is that out domestic v8-engines are inefficient. The honda guy looking for significant gains will turbo first then match the rest of the components to that setup over time, choosing to spend the initial high dollar price for the big power adder and then optimise that setup because he know he needs it to run the big numbers, while the domestic guy will optimise first and then go for the power adder afterwards thinking he will be able to run the big numbers on motor alone. So while it looks like the import guy is spending more, the reality is the import guy is spending more upfront but the domestic guy is spending the same stretched out over time. Late model domestics suffer the same problems as the imports when it comes to cost because their engines have also been optimised for efficiency, ask any camaro/firebird ls1 racer what he spends on speed parts, it will shock you, most of it costs the same or more as honda stuff.

The honda may not have the chassis advantage of a rwd (unless we are talking an s2000) but it has it's own advantages like weight. In the end the only thing that matters is the hp to weight ratio and the dollar to et ratio. A honda making 250 hp in a 2500lbs chassis will be just as fast as the 400hp engine in the 4000lbs chassis (all other things being equal) and it is probably a lot cheaper parts wise to get 250 hp out of a 4 banger than 400 out of a small block chevy. With modern computers being what they are a honda can add a 150 shot of spray and reflash the comp, but a 150 shot of spray on a 250 hp chevy may require pistons, cam, vairable timing controller, and various little carb turnign parts and nitrous jets.

ATX is right you want cheap speed get a bike...instant 9's out of the box and no pesky 5 pt harnesses.