New Buildup! 448ci STG 2 SE Hyd roller.. an MPG motor

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by Jim Weise, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    As some of you know, I have been working with Edouard here on a motor for his family heirloom.

    Several considerations came into play on this one:

    • We went STG 2 SE heads, due to that having the best fitting headers for the chassis (65-67 A body)
    • Hyd roller cam for longevity and lower mechanical friction and power losses.
    • MPG friendly dual plane, small duration numbers a high torque beast for around town and light towing duties.
    • 430 based engine, as it's more period correct for the car, and the smaller bore size is more efficient.

    Smooth operation with an OD trans, good mileage and reliability were the main factors in this build.

    HP was not even dicussed, as I recall. It would make what it would.

    A quick rundown of the specs:

    • 430 Buick block- 4.250 Bore
    • my standard 470 rotating assembly, with just the smaller bore pistons
    • Standard TSP STG 2 SE heads- 315/225 at .500
    • TSP Hyd roller, real close copy of the STG 1 cam.. TA roller rockers 1.6 ratio.
    • EZ-EFI (Also tested with 1000 HP Holley) The FI was so he could always have the correct tune, as he lives in CA, and vacations in the mountains.
    • MSD distrib
    • 2" 2014 TA header
    Well put togther with the good TA timing cover, water pump ect, a nice solid effort, but hardly an excercise in extremes.

    Static compression is 10.2, dynamic 8.0..

    Once again, this was not a HP exercise, rather an attempt to build an efficient, smooth, fun to drive and live with BBB for Ed's "Billy-goat" wagon.

    Here it is on the dyno. Idle speed in this video is around 700 at the end of the test.. and it makes 16.5-17" vac running that slow. And it's even smoother with the EFI. It just thumps right along at 600-650 with the EFI.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qeVVMFsEaPU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Now, I had only a vauge idea of power.. I figured around 500 torque, at about 3800, and maybe 450 HP at 5200 or so. Everyone involved would have been happy with those numbers.

    What do you think it made?- And it's rich here.. we were not jetting test carbs, and the dual plane and small cam are really pulling on the carb.. it's about 10HP out of tune here.

    JW
     
  2. 19richie66

    19richie66 4:13

    Sounds nice and healthy. Should have no problems pushing around the wagon.I have no clue as to output and really wouldn't care if I had that in my car. Looks great and sounds better.
     
  3. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    I know what it made from PM'ing Edouard, and I was surprised. I'll let Jim say after you guys guess a bit:grin:
     
  4. R4E5G5L

    R4E5G5L Not a Cutlass

    460hp 525tq

    Bob won the guess on yours Larry, let's see if he can do two for two!
     
  5. rmstg2

    rmstg2 Gold Level Contributor

    528TQ/472HP Nice sounding mill.:TU:

    Bob H.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  6. pmuller9

    pmuller9 Well-Known Member

    Jim

    Edouard emailed me. Absolutely amazing results!!
    It will be exciting to see the actual dyno sheet with that torque curve.
    Did you do a dyno test with both the carb and the EZ-EFI?.

    Can't wait to see a 470 with a similar combination.
    It would have to be one of the finest all around street/strip engines available.

    Paul
     
  7. elagache

    elagache Platinum Level Contributor

    Sweet!!! (Re: New Buildup! 448ci STG 2 SE Hyd roller.. an MPG motor)

    Howdy Jim, Richie, Larry, Steve, Bob, Paul, and V-8 Buick assertive engine fans . . . . :bglasses:

    Sweet!! :cool:

    However, right now there is just one thing wrong with it . . . . . . .

    It still isn't in the car yet!! :3gears:

    Me too!!

    Thanks Jim, Paul, and everyone who has been helping me out in rescuing my trusty wagon!!

    Cheers, Edouard :beer
     
  8. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    That Billy-Goat is going to kick a lot harder than most people think:laugh:
     
  9. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Yes, I did Paul.. that's coming. The EFI outperformed the 1000 HP, mainly because it's providing the correct fuel volumes.


    You won't have to wait long for the 470 version, I am gathering parts for one now. It will be a STG 1 SE version, with a worked iron intake, and headers.

    And a posible slight variant is behind it, this one with iron intake and iron ex manifolds, and revised cam timing, but I still have to talk to the customer on that. Ya, it's you Bob.. :grin:

    I was hoping to have some time to devote the rest of the story now, but I am doing a Billet fuel pump system for a customer, and once again, the monkeys at the parts houses can't get the right parts in the boxes, so I am off on that 120 mi round trip to get a fitting.. ah.. you take the good with the bad when you live in the sticks.

    Later, and keep guessing, no one is close yet.
     
  10. sriley531

    sriley531 M.M.O.G.

    490hp/515tq.

    I love these games, its like a way more real world "Lets make a deal"!!:D
     
  11. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Gettin' warmer.. :laugh:

    JW
     
  12. flynbuick

    flynbuick Guest

    500 square
     
  13. elagache

    elagache Platinum Level Contributor

    Thread with the rest of the story (Re: 448ci STG 2 MPG motor)

    Howdy Jim, Jim, and V-8 Buick horsepower addicts . . . .

    Thanks for all the neat comments everybody!!! :TU:

    Most folks know about the wagon that this engine is going into, but for the newcomers, there is a thread with the car's history: The grand adventures of a trusty "billy-goat" Wagon! That will allow you'all to put a grill into this story! :3gears:

    :grin:Awe shuck that just can't be right . . . . . My wagon is way too cool :cool: to be square!! :laugh:

    Cheers, Edouard :beer
     
  14. pro tour gsx

    pro tour gsx pro tour gsx

    525 hp 540 tq
     
  15. gsx678

    gsx678 Well-Known Member

    555hp
    535tq
     
  16. 535 hp
    555 tq
    1 million smiles for Edouard
     
  17. RG67BEAST

    RG67BEAST Platinum Level Contributor

    504hp based on the small cam but efficient heads.
    519 trq.. Due to the wide 115 LS holding it back.

    Ray
     
  18. elagache

    elagache Platinum Level Contributor

    Some good guesses . . . . (Re: 448ci STG 2. an MPG motor)

    Dear Brian, Bob, Ray, and V-8 Buick "wheel of horsepower" contestants . . . .

    Some mighty good guesses, some that are pessimistic, and some that are optimistic . . . . . . . .

    Which ones are which? . . . . you'll have to guess!!

    :grin: In a suitable Bugs Bunny voice: "Ain't I a stinker?" :laugh:

    Cheers, Edouard :beer

    P.S. What do ya' expect? We had a skunk get caught in a rat trap around the house and . . . . . express it's discontent as . . . . only a skunk can do!! :shock:
     
  19. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Nice guess Ray.. your real close on HP, just a bit under the torque.

    Let's go back and see how we got there.

    Here's the motor..

    Looks Pontiac Blue with the flash on the camera, but we fixed that down the road here by losing the flash.

    <a href="http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s110/tspjim455/?action=viewt=100_5227.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s110/tspjim455/100_5227.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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    and some parts to go in those holes..

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    And then we put them all together.. this one was a bit cranky, but it saw things my way eventually

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    OOOhhh.. Christmas in July.. I don't think so...

    Ya Know, I bet a nice standard black Napa cap would fit on there..

    [​IMG]

    And it does.. much better.. although it's a little weird, as the window faces the rear.. but no matter..

    [​IMG]

    And there it is.. as nice a motor at this level as I have built, Ed really didn't scrimp on anything. Heck of a piece.


    So... I load up both Larry's and Ed's mills and roll off to the dyno..

    Larry's goes great.. no issues, more power than expected, great start to a long day on the dyno.

    And we hook up this beast.. Ron (dyno operator) asks me how much power it's going to make, after giving me the appropriate hard time about it being green..

    I told him.. "it ain't easy beein' green.."

    In answer to his question, I told him I had no idea, never built one even close to the spec on this thing.. small cube, small cam but a roller, dual plane, EFI.." around 450 maybe" I said.

    We put a well known 750 vac secondary carb on, just for initial start-up and a few pulls. That should be just about enough carb for this one I figure..

    Starts up great.. turn the timing to 30* and let it warm up. Nice, no cam breakin to have to go thru.. just let it run at 1500 or so for 10 minutes to warm up the oil, vary the rpm a bit to seat the rings..

    We are chuckling at how much vacuum it's making, and how smooth it is. "nice wagon motor" I am thinking.

    Get to the first pull

    Ron: "What rpm range should we test?"
    "Try 3000 to 4500"

    Smooth as glass on a short pull..

    [​IMG]

    Quick scan of the sheet

    "man pulling hard on that carb, with the dual plane and small cam"- way to the safe side of rich..

    "Whoa.. VE's in the mid 90's.. might make some power here"

    Everything else checks out, decent power for the state of tune.. fat, and down on timing (30*)

    Gave it another pull to seat the rings.. same numbers, or slightly better.

    Ron: "We certainly should get that 450 number"

    "oh, there might be more than that here.. let's see where she stops... give it some more rpm, say 5200"

    The water brake does it's thing..

    [​IMG]


    Ok, now I am officially interested...

    "Might like some timing" Ron mentions.

    "I'm on it".. as I go into the cell to adjust the timing.

    On my way back in.." Let's try 5500, and see when it tips over"

    The water brake goes back to work:

    [​IMG]


    After the pull, Ron looks up at me and says "you listening for rocks?"..

    I give him a goofy look.."Rocks??"

    "Your shaking your head"..

    "Just thinking.. if we put a 950 on this thing it would make 500 HP, no spacers, no fine tuning, hell we aren't even in the ballpark yet on jetting"

    Ron Looks at me and says "That EZ-EFI throttle body is 1000 cfm, let's put my 1000 HP on it.."

    "Sure that makes some sense"

    And the video you first watched above was the next thing that happened. It's preserved for posterity due the fact that I came out of my daze a bit, and remembered to turn the camera on..

    Here are the numbers for the contest:

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    "Still plenty fat, but let's see where the HP peaks, we might be there"

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    "Yup, 5500 is the top, but look at it hang in there to almost 6.."

    Now at this point, had I been actually trying to make HP, some big dyno sheet to show you guys, I would have went out, put a 1" spacer under the carb, and took 2 jet sizes out of the carb all around..

    And I bet it would have made 515-520 HP.. I have seen it before. This is a stock B4B, without the divider cut down, and that little mod alone is worth 10HP at this HP level. And without that divider cut, they really want the spacer.

    But that was not the point here, so there was no reason to do that, and it was getting late. Time to hook up the EFI.

    This is the first start..

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wqzz-Nr6ufE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    Took us about a half hour to set it up, and I have done 3 of these now, and they all have started up this easy. So we let it warm back up, and ran thru the setup stuff, and in about 10 minutes we were ready for the EFI pull.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Sf4sDxxQ1G0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



    And here's the numbers..

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    And the graph..
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    It's still not in perfect tune, a bit fat yet, but I didn't want to fill the ECU with dyno pulls.. so it has to unlearn them when this thing actually gets in the car.

    I wanted this thing to be as easy to work with for the guys Ed is going to have put it in the car as possible, and as it sits now, it's plug and play..

    All I can say about this deal is:

    I WANT ONE!

    Imagine this motor, in STG 1 SE form, in a car like Todd's green lightweight GS.. paint it red, put chrome covers and shorty headers on it, coated black, so they just kind of blend in. A tip top tuned Q-jet..

    We don't need no cam lope to run in the 10's...

    Be interesting to see what the 470" version does.
     
  20. pmuller9

    pmuller9 Well-Known Member

    Jim

    Thats so incredible! The torque curve (with the EFI) is probably over 500 ft lbs starting below 2500 rpm and continues to 5200
    and horsepower appears to continue to climb beyond 5500 rpm.

    All this from only 448 cu in. If I where Edouard, the anticipation and excitement of installing this beast and running it would interfere with any other daily activity including sleep.

    Again, can hardly wait for your future efforts.

    We all really appreciate you taking the time (And staying up late at night) to post these projects. You go above and beyond the normal.
    Thanks

    Paul

    <o:p></o:p>
     

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