New Stage 3 - 4 roller rockers

After reading through this yesterday I messaged Michael Jr. Asked if they had a problem with me making these and he said no. Also said I was misinformed on new rockers from TA. They can order individual parts from their supplier, T&D, as well as some custom stuff like steel in place of the alumn. Willing to bet there is a very long wait time. So for now I will go forward.

 

Had Finishline do mine and they flow great but beware of getting into the water jackets. One of mine was so close I popped a hole in the #5 ex runner months after installing.

 

Steel would be a better option IF...they were completely reprofiled....would be WAY to heavy otherwise....but something like the comp ultra pro magnum would be much more durable..bush them like the LS rockers and you would be done with rocker failure....would give up a few hp....but forvthe peace of mind of them not destroying things or ruining a weekend

 

Folks.
Not 100% sure who Briz spoke with. I know he said Sherri, but Sher knows the Stage 3&4 rockers have not been discontinued. We have made two sets recently and one is on an engine ready to run here at TA. They should of asked me about spare parts. There may be some stg4 rocker bodies as well. It hasn't been taking that long to get these made recently.
Todd69GS
"Who cares, TA isn't doing anything fo us"
Wow.
That's a fine pat on the back.

 

If anyone is going to fabricate rocker arms and they want the best of two worlds, use 7075T6 aircraft aluminum. It's as strong as steel but much lighter. Vet

 

Well that was a 2000$ kick in the nuts. Oh well. It is what it is. Thanks Mike for filling in the blanks.

 

No disrespect what so ever but someone in your store did tell him they were no longer made.
Was it a floor employee a secretary maby or phone receptionist?

 

TA is probably doing what they can. With very few foundry's, few machine shops, and even fewer machinists, it's very difficult to have parts made, especially since there are fewer and fewer true Buick people out there. If you have a foundry or a machine shop, are you going to make a few Buick specialty parts or 1000's of LS1 parts? This has been coming on for 20+ years, the Pandemic just accelerated it. TA will probably focus on more popular parts rather than a part that they sell very few of.

 

Huh.. news to me... 2 years ago I was in need of a replacement rocker for a Stage 3 set, and you were my first call.. Tim said nothing in stock, not planning on making any more, you will have to make one or find used parts. I luckily found a set of them from another customer, who happened to have a spare shaft full of them.

I relayed my experience with that engine to Steve when he needed a rocker, and offered him one, but he chose to take the initiative and have them made.

I have very nice set of STG 3 heads sitting on the shelf in the shop.. customer owned, he had these and a set of STG 2TE's.. we used the TE's on is Tomahawk build because I flat out told him that TA is no longer supporting his Stg 3 head with parts like rockers and hold downs. Like most of them out there, they have been clearanced for valve springs, so breakage is just a matter to time..

Once Steve told me he was making them, I called my other customer and said that his STG 3 heads were back in consideration, since we can now get replacement rockers..

I guess the moral of the story here is unless you hear it directly from Mike T, don't believe it.

JW

 

There is a younger gentleman name Peyton Hunt that is making some great strides with billet parts for the off brands. He will be making a set for my custom heads in the near future to replace my older Jessels.

 

Jim.
Tim may have said none in stock. But did you ask Tim if Mike could have a set made for you.
Heck, we made Rod a standard set of TA roller rocker, but made them out of steel. 13/16 shaft. Have never made another set since.
If you need rockers Jim, just call and order. The part numbers are still the same.
Steve.
I do believe we spoke, but I don't remember you asking about making you roller rockers or getting parts for them. We just over nighted Rob Giroux some Stg4 shafts before the GSNats.
We are down 3 people from where we use to be. Which I'm filling in along with Sherri and Caroline.
I just need to try harder and put more time in. I am uncomfortable that I may have let some of you down. It's not intentional by no means folks.

 

This is what I like about written text. People communicate better and problems get solved.

 

Its OK. just money and part of the go fast game. What Im building should be a bit stronger and fit my application better. I , for one, appreciate you and your staff for everything you do for our hobby. If not for TA we'd all be running brand X due to no parts. Sure hope theres a plan for when the day comes you guys retire.

 

Good to know..

I have a full set of rockers for the current customer's Stage 3 heads, but these rockers have been ground for clearance for big valve springs.. and when I see this, I always want to warn the customer to keep a pair of rockers on hand.. they break in pairs always. Learned this 20 years ago when we were running Sweesy's car. But recent experiences had told me that was not really an option, so stay away from using those heads if you have an option.. All he is missing is a few of the narrower holddowns.. and I don't see a part number for them.

If we decide to use those heads, you will be hearing from me.. will need a few hold downs and one set of arms for him to keep in the trailer..

JW

 

Briz, when calling TA with a question of that importance, be sure to ask for Mike and get all info straight from him. General questions are OK to have answered by the receptionist/salesperson, but unfortunately that person may not always have info on "special" products, such as these.

Although TA has employees working away at supplying products, you might say that in a way........ Mike is a "one man band". He contains most of the "knowledge" and "how to" involved with TA and TA products. He could definitely use more qualified personal to help out and get "caught up", but everyone must realize that finding qualified people in today's workforce is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a relatively "small" shop such as TA. I know for a fact, that Mike is busting ass to try to get caught up and fill orders. For the most part Mike is there working 7 DAYS a WEEK! That's something you do when starting out a new business, but it's not the "norm" for an established business such as TA. Some people will take the opportunity to bash TA with backorders and such, but damn....... what does a person have to do to stay afloat? Face it, the Buick "V8" people are a small group, working with and racing 50 plus year old equipment. That's why the Tomahawk was created.... to at least offer a new option. Is it all "perfect" and without issues............no. But without Mike and TA, we wouldn't even be talking about any of this because racing our big block Buicks would be nothing but a memory of years past!!!

 

On all of the high powered aluminum block engines we built. We purposely chose to use STAGE 2 SE heads IE: Bob Ortolani's and Ken Montour's 530" aluminum block builds. Both are using STAGE 2 SE heads. Thanks to Bob Ortolani and Mike T for providing us with head castings to experiment with. Duane spent untold hours experimenting reconfiguring different port designs and flow bench testing on three different flow benches IE : Super Flow 110, 600 and 1020 to get accurate numbers. The STAGE 2 SE with Duane redesigning the ports provided the best flow numbers. Duane like working with the SE best. Of any of the available head designs. If any of the STAGE 3&4 went discontinued or not, we could get by with the SE'S. The heads have all been converted to Jesel rocker systems. On expensive aluminum block builds for reliability, we wouldn't risk a failure of a rocker that would possibly take out other expensive components like a billet cam core or even cause a catastrophic failure. Mike T does the best he can and has many job functions at TA. He has always taken the time from his busy schedule to talk to us on the phone when we call. If you needed help. He would probably make himself available.

 

Saw this conversion rocker deal brought up a lot on facebook and here recently, and it bears some discussion: There is a bit of misunderstanding out there, about why this is done.

Jesel/T&D rocker conversion was never about reliability per se. It was about spring clearance issues, which caused us to have to clearance into the rocker body, in the highest stressed area, and that often times lead to breakage of the rocker arm itself.. this is no longer a problem after serious roller cam springs came to market for the LS series of engines, which use 1.300 diameter springs. Stock Buick is 1.360 dia.

Previously, for a big solid roller cam, with open pressures above 600 psi, we had to use a spring with at least a 1.500 OD, and there just isn't room in our valvetrain for that big a spring, so we had to clearance the rockers. The Jesel/T&D conversions solved that problem, allowing big springs with adequate rocker arm clearances. This was achieved by using smaller rocker shafts, so the body of the rocker could have a smaller OD, thus providing clearance. And for that it worked great, but don't confuse clearance with strength.

I personally have seen two Jesel individual shaft rockers with broken shafts. Two completely different engines. Both happened during dyno testing, and there was no cause for the shaft breakage, other than stress levels higher than those individual pieces would tolerate. No loose bolts, oiling issues or excessive lash. My dyno operator has reported to me he has seen this dozens of times. Sometimes as a result of loose bolts or excessive lash, but many times for no apparent reason at all.

It happens..

It is my belief that if you can deal with the unsupported ends of the Stock Buick configuration, then the larger shaft diameter and the bigger bearings actually make the TA rocker, of any flavor, stronger than that relatively tiny individual shaft rocker stuff. And unsupported end problem is not as widespread as you might think.. I have a dozen or so Tomahawks out there with both SE and TE heads, with TA roller rockers and big roller cams, that have made thousands of laps down the track, with no problem at all. Lifts above .750 and certain cam profiles is where you run into this issue.

Rob at Precision Billet has extensive experience on his own car dealing with the unsupported rocker shaft ends, and I believe that he has come up with the correct solution, in a round about way.. Most of us know about the end support he makes, but might now know that his own car broke a shaft, even with that installed. He added a load bolt support for the ends, tied into the valve cover.. exactly like the lifter bore girdle/rear end girdle tech, and knock on wood, his rocker shaft breakage stopped.

I would certainly like to see Mike at TA incorporate this into his valve covers, making it a bolt on setup. Special hold down clamps for the ends of the shafts, which straddle the rocker to support both sides of the shaft on those end rockers, this also provides a load bolt support point..and then provide valve covers with the load bolt installed.. it would make this a bolt on situation, which I believe would solve this issue for good. And the final result would be superior in strength to the aftermarket individual shaft conversions.

But again, I don't believe this is as big an issue as some make it out to be.. breaking the shaft in that last bolt hole, is fairly rare with the TA rocker/solid shaft setup.


JW

 

Never had a rocker failure of any kind with ANY kind of rockers in the last 35 years. Failures we have seen with other folks have usually been a result of failure of some other component. Damaging the rockers too. Heads not set up properly. Either incorrect push rods, or incorrect valve springs, for the application, improper open and closed seat pressures, incorrect stacked heights and or from coil bind. Or spring weakening from normal wear. We religiously check the valve springs regularly. During track season with a good valve spring tester. Because they too can go away very quickly. And will replace them as soon as they weaken or even start to go away. They don't last forever. That is just our perspective and what we like to do and what we have experienced. Everyone has different experiences and procedures. And perspectives.

 

My heads started out as SE’s,but look nothing like them now. The ports are now in a different zip code. Spring selection is definitely better than it was 20 years ago and now there are some better solid roller lifters as well. My jesels have been fine,but to look at them,you would scratch your head.

 

Paid Jesel 1900.00 to convert my Stage 4 heads to 1.7 ratio
Parts are hour drive away & one day shipping.
Best investment & made once.

. I only had to slightly clearance the rocker Bar that bolts to head. ( close to valve spring.)

PAC spring Run 800 open 285 closed . 7/16 push rod Trend , turned well over 7500 no problem .
They asked me to Bring a block to index set up correct geometry.

T&D has a very similar system