Ironically, Tom, I just heard a statistic last night that said the average salaries of CEO's rose by 25% last year... A lot of GM's problem are the pensions paid to the retirees (sorry Dave)...even in our podunk town of 600, I can name over a half dozen retired GM workers. I heard something a while back that said something to the effect that within the next couple of years, the amount GM pays to retiree pensions will surpass the profit margin...
No offense taken, Rob. Truth of the matter is the lower level salaried employees don't even make as much as the UAW people (especially skilled trades) and their pensions are more getting back what you contribute over your career (not optional) than anything from the company. Not so with UAW and hourly. I was at the edge of the good stuff midway in my career, but never got into the real good bucks and benny's. My pension is no more than a skilled trades UAW worker that put in his 30 years (and didn't contribute a dime to it.) I always referred to salaried exempt people (very different from salaried non-exempt people) as "unrepresented labor". Years ago they took very good care of us and we had the UAW to thank for a lot of the cost of living increases, increased bennies, etc. However in the 1980's, the first really good scare for the big 3 (when Chrysler went under and Ford was on life support until the Taurus came along), they relaized they could save a lot of money by getting pweople to quit. So they started axing the bennies and not automatically passing along the new gains by the UAW contracts. We got to work more, and made less. Big diffference between the CEO's and execs and the lower level salary people. Tom M. is dead nuts right about the entire thing.
Ok, so learn a hillbilly on this...is Tom's scenario even possible? Forgive me if'n I'm wrong, but if it *is* possible, then couldn't they theoretically still pay reasonable wages (by working around the UAW), use part of those saved wages to reintroduce jobs here stateside, and heaven forbid even save the consumer a dime or two in the end? Am I looking at this upside down, or is it really this simple?? --------------------------------------- Hillbilly Racing Team War=Peace, Freedom=Slavery, Ignorance=Power
GM: products too similar, too slow to market, Litigation, retiree costs, etc. No it isn't that simple. I always find it funny when folks blame the worker for outsourcing. Savings will never be passed to the customer unless it does one thing Increase Shareholder Value. Guess who among others are shareholders........the American public. Tom's statements remind me of a conversation with a designer who thought auto workers made too much. His company now thinks it can increase shareholder value by sending his job to India. Gotta be careful who you point fingers at. GM has lots of issues. The economy as a whole though is driven by the American public. I could argue Tom makes unreasonable money.....what a new P/S car per year? :laugh: Or Dave, how does a retiree buy a house with two garages build a third all the while restoring two cars? :laugh: Until folks realize they cannot have everything cheap and remain unfazed in their own lives, outsourcing will continue.
Is it true that UAW workers don't contribute to their pension plan ? If so, I got into the wrong line of work.
Formerly GM Hydramatic, now American Axle Here in Three Rivers we have the old GM Hydramatic factory that folded when everything went Front wheel drive. The building was bought and became American Axle and Manufacturing. Most of my statements are made from opinions that I have formed from talking with people who work at American Axle. It pisses me off when I hear people brag about how much money they are getting paid to go in and read magazines, hide and sleep, and I think the one that tops them all is a scenario where this guy is a tool grinder, and he gets paid triple time to work an 8 hour shift alone on Sundays, be he is not able to run any equipment without another person present in the department, so he tells me(this is firsthand info) that all he does is go in and read for 8 hours, and he's being paid triple time!!! He makes @$25/hour X triple time :eek2:
Look further down the food chain... As I've told you before, Brian, I agree with what you're saying...but let's look further down the foodchain. What about the non-union guy barely making minimum wage, just trying to survive, or heaven forbid, raise a family? Is he to fault if he can't afford to "step up" to the $30 American made toaster versus the $20 toaster made overseas? Who is there more of: those that *can't* step up, or those that simply *choose not to*?? --------------------------------------- Hillbilly Racing Team War=Peace, Freedom=Slavery, Ignorance=Power
There are more who are ignorant or oblivious to how their choices effect things beyond themselves. Further down the foodchain is what concerns me the most.
doublespeak . . . . Rob..... love the new sig line. 1984, Brave New World and Animal Farm will be required reading when I become King. :bglasses:
How many people work there at American Axle? If all read magazines, hide and sleep, I would think no product would come out the shipping dock!
I was wonderin' if anyone would notice that, John! Animal Farm was required reading in school here, and I got turned on to 1984 after that. Pretty insightful books, considering they were written in the mid-late 1940s... ------------------------------------ Hillbilly Racing Team War=Peace, Freedom=Slavery, Ignorance=Power
This one's too easy to answer, Brian. Sell your $450k home, buy a $350k home, pay off everything, and learn to live on 30% of what you used to make. 5 years from now, do it again, and sell off a couple of the cars. Got to pay those taxes, eat, and God help us if we get another disaster like Jimmy Carter in there and run inflation up in the double digits. (Any of you remember 18% mortgages? I do). Buying and driving used cars like the 8 year old truck with 180k on it is another trick. You don't do anything, go anywhere, and the only recreation is the car hobby. Cut and split your own firewood, mow your own grass and plow your own snow (with a used tractor), and be fortunate to still be married to the same person for 36 years (who still works part time), no divorces and lawyers, and no perpetual teenagers still living at home mooching. Just the two old dogs (3 counting me) Cars have always been a separate account, have been in a zero sum game for 10 years. Want to buy something? Sell something. Sold the 65 442 conv to pay for daughters first year at MSU. Until the recent disasters with the Ramrod engine, sure didn't have much invested there.. ($3200 in 1968) :Brow: That's not even $100 per year! :beer GM, and Ford wouldn't have as big of a pension liability if they hadn't retired so many people 10 years early.......and still kept hiring new people that fit their profiles for a "new" company. R.I.P. as far as I'm concerned. My entire life has been wrapped up around cars and the auto industry for the last 40. They had a chance to change with the times, they blew it. Just hope I get my investment in the Ford retirement program back. Goes down 25% next year when social security kicks in at 62. Now there's a warm thought. If we ever get enough to afford a new car again (guess we could sell and downsize the house again), it won't be a GM or Ford. Yesterday's technology and a nightmare in service after the sale.
I agree that Buick is strong overseas. In China the Buicks hold the same level as Cadillacs do here. It is also nice to see that they have recently (past couple years) come out with newer, more stylish body designs... seems like they are doing what they can to keep up.
