Nope....we've been there for 12 years! :TU: Hey, if it were strictly cubes and HP as you suggest, instead of what we have now, then we need to eliminate all the cars rated under 350HP. And we all need to allow Lincoln's, Cadillacs, and wagons that are big cube with 350HP or more! Because after all, they are better performance cars because of the cubes and power than any "performace" image car ever could be.:laugh: :laugh: Family, Luxo, Land Barge shootout! :sleep: :sleep: Hey, I did have a 400 cube '72(?) Impala, but the red doors on a yellow car was against the P/S paint guidelines. Heck why do we need paint guidelines......multi-colored Lincolns and Caddies for everyone!!
:laugh: :laugh: Actually, I needed to lower it to 350HP so I could run that '60 Lincoln rag top I want to buy! :laugh: Seriously though...the Vette is another good example of performance image. Minus driveline you see it and still think "Vette" no matter what it did have. A '70 Caprice minus the driveline you think "Derby Car".:laugh: Kidding....kidding...as Rob said no hate e-mail!
Can you tell I'm the only one at work today? LOL! Ok, just so we're on the same page, it's "performance image" based...then we're gonna need to vote a bunch of cars off the island (I'll expect a show of hands shortly!)...all of us with 427 COPO cars would get the boot (nice knowin' ya folks!)...the Savoys are gone...bye bye T-37s...Biscaynes, adios...300 Deluxe, don't let the door hit ya on your way out. I'm sure I've missed a couple, but we'll get to them in a minute! :laugh: Looking through the previous lists of results, I see a few cars that are carrying either base, or low level trim packages, that aren't even running the top engine option for that model...a 454/390hp b-body seems to be in the same boat (biggest engine available in model line, but 2nd tier body, behind the Impala...but no SS for either)...granted, a '70 b-body is a big car, but it wouldn't be the *biggest* car there by any means. I realize it's a judgement call, and I thank the Lord that *I* don't have to make the call, or any of the calls that Bob & Dan do, year in and year out, but it does raise some interesting questions, if for nothing more than a time killer on another slow day @ work...:beer
I would not say Image only, but it does play a roll. I don't know why the COPO cars or anything similar would get the boot. Example, the '69 300 Deluxe. When folks first saw the car, most car people wondered if it had a 396 in it. It didn't.....but you see...... despite not being a Chevelle SS people still have a "Performance Image" in their mind. Same with a Camaro, Vette or a Mustang etc etc etc. Other cars were offered with performance in mind but had trim and or a smaller but still potent plant to fool insurance companies. To most, cars like my '58 do not stimulate a performance image at all...but in it's day these cars were advertised as being sporty or having ultimate performance and offered performance engines. Others just have the highest performance engine the factory made. If a '70 Caprice stimulates a performance image, was a package to fool insurance, was advertised as being a performace car or had the highest performace engine the factory made.....well then I suppose it's a no brainer. If it's not a no brainer then it falls to Dan and Bob to decide. Like you said.....glad it's not me.:laugh:
Interestingly, the '06 spreadsheet lists a '66 396/325hp Caprice...but no love for it's 390hp/454 counterpart, I guess!
Re: Can you tell I'm the only one at work today? LOL! With your customers, you have a FAST day at work ?? :grin:
I'll bet Dan could not stand the whining and complaining from painter Scott and car owner Roger as to why it couldn't show. So Dan, in a moment of weakness, allowed it knowing that Roger, a car salesman, would sell it before the race or soon afterward. Just my gross speculation though:laugh:
Well, hello again everybody! It's been too long. I am sort of liberal (me - liberal on something?!? Yes, and on a few other things, too) but I favor a greater VARIETY of cars. A 390 HP LS5 454 Caprice should be allowed. That was the top option and was available on other trim levels - like cop cars. I've been a fan of Caprices since I bought my first cop car in 1992. I've had 7 different ones and the one I have now is sort of a COPO - a 94' LS (with the plush interior) but also with the 9C1 police package and the LT1 engine - it is documented from GM as 1 of 75. Ran 15.70s bone stock with 116k miles and a non-posi axle. Caprice; It's sort of a wussie name - it sounds like the name of a stripper - I mean "exotic dancer". Nevertheless, if the car has the top engine option it should be allowed, say if the engine is OVER 400 cubes, then ALLOW IT. Of course, that opens the door for Caddys, 225s, 98s, Imperials....there still won't be a flood of these cars, so chill out! I will make a second post on 69' GPs.
So, some of you want to know about the 69' GP, huh? I've only been into these since 1979 - when I was 12!!!:Brow: The 1 of 302 is for both GP Model J and SJ with the standard 428 with the M20 wide ratio 4spd. The standard 428 (370 HP) was the standard engine in the SJ. One could get A/C with this combo. Per the "rules" this car, since it is NOT the top engine, would not be allowed. One could "HO-ize" the engine and that would be O.K. I am looking at picking up a high option SJ automatic car - but to run in the pure-stocks the engine would have to be brought up to the HO level. The 428 HO had slightly different heads - HO stick cars came with the #48 heads, which are the same that 69' 400 RA III engines received. Automatc cars had the same heads as the standard 428. Main bearings were harder. Carb and distributor settings were different; the distributor has its own part number. The valvetrain had stiffer valve springs, actually a valve spring with a dampener according to the shop manual - call it a heavy duty dual valve spring. The cams on automatics was the "067" with the advertised duration of 273/289 deg. on the intake/exhaust. This is the cam that was installed with on the 1/302 428 std engine with stick cars. The 428 HO stick cars received the "068" cam, with the advertised duration of 288/302. Finally, all 428 HO engines received the long-branch cast exhaust manifolds which look like a "header". An adaptor is used for the oil filter to clear the exhaust pipe near the header. Engines received chrome air cleaner lids and valve covers. Finally, exhaust resonators (near the tailpipe) were NOT included with the 428 HO. My car (that took me 12 years to find) is a 1 of 94 M20 4spd - it is a Model J with the numbers-matching 428 HO (390 HP) engine and no A/C. The trans is not original - I may get one of those reproduction Muncies. (There is ONE of these 94 that I have documented that IS equipped with factory A/C - even though the order form specifically forbade that combination.) I've done nothing with my car since I spun a bearing in 2003 (has it been THAT long?). Work will be done in the next year but I don't know if I'll make the pure-stocks. I could go on - how about some production numbers? Remember that the 428 HO could be had on a model J or the SJ. 428 HO auto: darn it - I have forgotten, but it is around 1000 with 280 without A/C. 428 HO with M20 wide ratio 4spd: 94 - I've tracked about 10 of these. 428 HO with special orderr M21 wide ratio 4spd: 22 - a 3.90 gear was mandatory with this. I've never been able to find one of these but one was used in a Car and Driver road test. This was a Royal Bobcat, no less. 428 HO with 3spd: 3; The 3spd was the FORD top-loader and was the trans one received if NO transmission was ordered. Still a floor shift. The 3spd was available in the Model J only. Oh, we owned one of these from 78' to 84' and it is what I learned to drive stick on. The story on the one we owned I should cover in a separate posting; suffice to say the car was scrapped in 1985 and the drivetrain pulled. One of the other cars was written off in a wreck in the early 80s, the last one is still out there. I hope you all find this at least somewhat informative! :Smarty:
I missed that Caprice posting by Donnie; that Caprice with some Caprice cars would make an interesting photo shoot! :Brow:
Uh,Joe? You seem to have forgotten to attach some pics of your GP,and if you have none to add right now,color combo info will work until you have pics:TU:
Actually it would. Kinda like a Torino with the Thunderjet or CJ are allowed as opposed to the top SCJ.
Brian, I seem to recall an e-mail I had from Dan that the car (a GP) must be (or should be) an HO car. It doesn't matter to me. A 370 HP highly optioned 3.23 geared auto car ran low 15s in the Car and Driver road test in 69'. That was the same test where the Royal Bobcat 4spd car ran 13.90s. Tom, I have may photos to download from various digital discs, but I would be very embarrassed to take a photo of my car now. Something about a bunch of boxes on top of it. At least I have the other side of my garage neat and tidey! I'm also a little cash strapped as I just bought a 2000 GMC 2500 for a tow vehicle. I have a nice picture of the Halloween Jack-O-Lantern I carved in 15 minutes with my powered jig saw that I could post! My car is white (blech!) with a white vinyl top and black vinyl (or is it pleather) interior. I will be changing to either a gold or Midnight Green with a black vinyl top. The Model J we had was Midnight Green with no vinyl top and parchment (off white) interior. It has 3.55 gears, but to chase down a certain silver 70 SS454 Monte from Canada I may have to change to the 3.90s. (The gear that is in that Monte - I don't think I quite agree with. I thought that 3.31s were the lowest one could get - SORRY for the digression!) :3gears:
You can run any gear ratio per the rules.:TU: Kind of a hard thing to reasonably tech.....plus it helps make for a little better race!
.... or any rear end made by your car manufacturer. No biggee with Mopars and Ferds as they didn't have unique designs for each make, but at GM, each division had pretty much their own designs but were interchangeable as a complete assembly. Cars built at the BOP Assembly plants cross-bred rear ends (and many other parts) and put Buick axles in Olds, Pontiac axles in Olds, and even Chevy 12 bolts in Olds cars (Canadian plants). I'm sure same thing goes on with Pontiacs and Buicks, but i don't know as much about those off-breed, alien makes. :laugh: This really levels the playing field, as even though Olds had ratios all the way up to 5.00 to 1 (dealer installed), they're very hard to get parts and very expensive when you do. Usually end up using used parts and that leads to a lot of carnage. Parts for the Chev and later corporate axles are readily available and reasonably priced, so why not? It's nice to have the same "luxury" of not being tied to your own brand there. I run Chev 12 bolts (3.90, 4.10, and 4.56) in all 3 of my cars. The Olds 12 bolt posi's (both 3.91's) are in the corner. :TU:
O.K. O.K. - I don't mean to bring up anything bad about the gear thing - we don't need whiney gears or racers! We'll see how good I can run with 3.55s and then perhaps step up to 3.90s. Yes, I do still plan on driving the car on the street very rarely. (My commute to work is only 2.5 miles, for example.) I am hoping for 13.90s. I don't have a ready access to a whole housing so I'll stick with the stock (10-bolt, 8.2") housing. That is one part of the car that has been completely gone through already. I never had any problems with the 8.5" 12-bolt Olds in my 68 H/O - and I probably had around 40 or 50 runs in that car - but that's a T-400 car.
Having problems wasn't my point. I had no problems with the 3.91 posi in my Ramrod which is a 4 speed and not exactly babied ever, or any others of the dozens of Olds I've had with Olds rears. I removed it because if you do have problems, you're either screwed or get out your wallet and dig deep. Axle shafts for the 31 spline 67-68 axles haven't been available since 1969 other than aftermarket or used parts (tick, tick, tick). Other parts are difficult to find and I hate to think of it sitting in the air while I try to find parts for it in the middle of the season. Chev 12 bolts or the corporate 8.5's used after 1970 are much cheaper and easier to find repair parts.
