TSP Level 2A-R (Larry's motor) Complete and Dyno tested.

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by LARRY70GS, Jul 25, 2012.

  1. MPH thru traps is a direct link to how much hp your making.. i doubt the converter is causing the low mph.
     
  2. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    May need to do several runs and see if there's much fluctuation. The SP converters won't give as much consistency as a fixed converter (or so I've read).

    It's also possible that you're not getting as much torque multiplication with the SP when the vanes angle for the higher stall on that style of converter.

    /shrug

    All looks good to me, Larry. Nice machine!
     
  3. i was under the impression that once the converter was past the stall speed there was no torque multiplication. I have been 1.55 60' and 126 mph on a stock switch pitch converter in a 3900 lb car before.
     
  4. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    Well I'm not sure, I was just tossing an idea out there.
     
  5. i was thinking maybe you knew something i didnt.. we are all still learning
     
  6. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    After talking with Jim Weise in an email correspondence about a SP converter, the vane angles have to be just so in order to maximize efficiency of the torque multiplication, or so I gathered. The smaller the diameter of the torque converter, the less multiplication you get, and I would presume the sharper the angle of the vanes the less multiplication as well.

    I'm sure there's a 'sweet spot' in there somewhere between diameter and vane angle.
     
  7. Jim Rodgers

    Jim Rodgers Well-Known Member

    RPM thru the traps will tell the tale on the converter. ET and mph show what, 515-520 hp or so? That may be all thats in it? RPM at the big end would explain a lot.

    Then again, 589 torque at 4900 with a 3200 converter isnt the best performing combo on the drag strip either. You want converter flash to be a little closer to peak torque. 3200 has to be way down in the torque curve.
     
    Julian likes this.
  8. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Well, just got back from Cecil. It was a very enjoyable weekend. Cecil is by far my favorite event of the year. John and Nancy Csordas always make this event one to remember. My hat is off to them, and the other Buick clubs involved. It wasn't typical Cecil mine shaft conditions, but it didn't rain when it mattered, and the whole event went off as planned for the most part. It didn't start raining on Saturday until 5 or 6PM, and everything was done by then. The car show had at least 50 cars I believe, and Saturday was a success as many more MANDRA cars showed up than we thought. It rained overnight, but by 4AM, you could see that full moon in a cloudless sky, and when the sun came out, everything dried out in a big hurry. I left the hotel at about 8AM with the rest of the crew. The 174 mile drive home took me a bit under 3 hours with minimal traffic. I drove both ways with the Q-jet that Jim did for me (my old John Osborne 800-7042240). It idled great, and had great throttle response. I didn't get a chance to check the mileage until I drove home, but I could tell it was better than my dismal 9-10 MPG last year. I drove home at 70 MPH almost the whole way and it got 14 MPG, a big improvement. I left the Q-jet on for my first 3 runs. I knew it would be down on power compared to the AED 1000, I expected that. The last 3 runs were with the AED carburetor. I made a total of 6 passes on Friday. The car hooked solid every time, and ran in the 11's every time. People told me it sounded great going down the track. I don't want any body to think that I am bummed out here. It was a blast, and I had fun. I'm sure there is something wrong with my combination, and I'll find out what it is eventually. Here are my runs.

    Run #.........Carburetor..........Tire pressure........Ignition Timing........Leave RPM...........60'...........1/8 mile........................1/4 mile

    1.................Q-Jet.................15psi..................33*......................off idle............1.704...........7.583@89.65............11.958@112.81

    2.................Q-Jet.................15psi..................35*......................1500...............1.698...........7.532@90.95............11.86@113.53

    3.................Q-Jet.................16psi..................35*......................2000...............1.680...........7.499@91.08............11.826@113.66

    4.................AED1000.............16psi..................35*......................2000...............1.673...........7.439@91.65............11.74@114.24

    5.................AED1000.............16psi..................35*......................2500...............1.659...........7.432@91.53............11.732@114.36

    6.................AED1000.............16psi..................35*......................2500...............1.652............7.404@92.22...........11.673@115.02

    Runs 3-6 were run without an air cleaner. Last year I had a lot of trouble hooking up. My MT's were pretty near the end of their life. This year I had new ones. I also installed a set of Metco billet aluminum rear lower control arms to replace the stock boxed one I had. I also removed my front sway bar completely. I'm sure all those factors helped. This year, I had a good fuel pressure gauge with the sender right at the carburetor inlet. My fuel pressure sat right at 9 psi at idle. Under power the few times I could look at it, it was right around 6-7, so it didn't drop much. The car did not scare me at any point, but it felt better at the beginning of each run. It still didn't pull as hard at the top end. I didn't think of it at the time, but I should have left the SP in high stall for one entire run. Not sure it would have helped, but I should have tried it. I had a switch pitch timer, and all the runs were with the converter in high stall for 1.6 seconds after launch. The balance of each run was in low stall. The engine still felt a bit flat up top. I think a fixed pitch converter, a small tight one might help a lot. One last thing. Guys, I'm not a racer. I'm completely happy running my car once a year. I drive it all over the place on the street. It runs nice and cool even in the hottest weather, in the worst traffic conditions. It has never gone over 185*. Oil pressure is great. I've never seen it below 24 psi at an 800 RPM in gear idle. Driving down the highway for hours, it sits right at 56 psi. Like I said, I'm not a racer. I could probably use someone more experienced with me to suggest things to me. Maybe in the future sometime. For now, I have a solid 11 second street car that I can truly drive ANYWHERE. For now, that's OK in my book.:grin:
     
  9. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    I think we can say that due to your back to back drag strip trips, with similar weather condtions and almost identical performances, that is what your current combo is going to run.

    2 factors and a question..

    1. as Jim Rogers stated, your converter is far from a drag strip piece. That car needs a tight 4500 stall converter to be a strong strip performer, but that would compromise it's more important purpose.. street driving.

    2. Unless you have changed what you were doing last year, your allowing the trans to shift at 5400 automatically.. While the HP flattens out from 5500 to 6000 with your motor, it does hang on, and letting the motor rev higher in first allows it to work in a stronger power range on the strip.

    I would click the lever at 6K if it were me behind the wheel. I would be surprised if it did not pick up in performance.

    The question would be to see what is different between your car and Mike Shaw's... I dynoed his current combo at 580ish hp, and he runs upwards of 120mph at cecil. I know he has my 9.5" converter, I wonder if he has 3" exhaust. If memory serves, he does with shorty headers.

    Ran your numbers thru the Wallace HP calculators with weather conditions factored, it stated 533 HP based on the ET, 517HP based on MPH

    Here's the raw, uncorrected data off the dyno on the 602HP corrected pull.

    [​IMG]

    pretty close..

    The second version of your motor was dyno'ed here about a month ago, it's going in a 68 that will be a drag car, so it will be interesting to see what he runs without the drivetrain compromises. It's not quite as strong as your motor, due to not as much head work, but it identical in every other way. Made 593 HP with the same dyno shop 1000 HP that we tested on yours.

    I wonder 2 things..

    How much HP does the gear vendor suck up?
    Is the exhaust the limiting factor past 4500 rpm? I might have swung the exhaust open to see..

    If I were to make 1 mechanical change to the car, I would put 4.33 gears in the rear. Your highway rpm would increase about 400, but it should still be less than the typical TH400 3.42 Geared GS.

    The gear change would knock several tenths off the 60', and your car has show mph increase the last two years when it goes faster in 60'. That means your not working the engine at it's peak potential. I would expect sub 11.50 ET's at around 117-118, with just that change, with a DA of about 1800', which you had out there at Cecil the last couple years. And when you get the DA down around 200 ft, like happens out there, you would see the low 11's at 120+.

    I would try it, I would expect it to feel much stronger with the gear in it, on the street. You can always go back to the 3.73's.

    Then again, the practical side of me would say "Who cares what it runs for mph on the strip, I do that once a year"...

    Glad to hear of the 14mpg with the Q-jet. I am more and more leaning away from the big Holley's on street machines.

    Bottom line, you have a mid 11 second street car that gets 14mpg, and is reliable.. that's an unusual combination of attributes in a 60's era muscle car.

    Have fun

    JW
     
  10. bostongsx

    bostongsx Platinum Level Contributor

    I would look at the converter loss and also the parasitic loss of the gear venders. My car at Cecil two years ago ran high 11.20's low 30's with a posi not making posi hence the 180/190 60' times. This was with a pump gas stage motor that dyno'd at 612hp. The car was heavy (all power options including the seat) and im not light the combo was over 4k. This was with a 950 quickfuel 3.73gears and a 400 with a coan converter. The only advantage over your set up was a stage2 scoop.
     
  11. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Thanks Jim,
    I know I need to shift it higher. The stock shifter is just so sloppy I think. I will modify my governor to make it shift at 6000 or as close as I can get to that. I'll have to put the DR's on again, and find a stretch of road where I can re calibrate my governor. Dropping the exhaust is another option. I might run it at Atco if I get the right day. I don't think I'm wanting 4.33 gears though:laugh:
     
  12. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    What rpm does it go down the road at 70mph at now?

    Just curious.. I can't recall what Trace Armstrong's Stage convert did for rpm, it had 3.73's and a GV, with 27" tires.. seem to think it was pretty low, like 2300 at 70mph.

    Did you happen to notice the rpm at the finish line?

    JW
     
  13. pro tour gsx

    pro tour gsx pro tour gsx

    good runs larry not many cars driving out to a track 3 plus hr s away and running fast like this, I am just happy to have my car in one running piece at the end of the day, what was your oil pressure like on the highway on the way down ? Btw im shifting at 6200, hope to make it to cecil next year but im kinda bored with the car , to go any faster would cost :dollar: but i would like to see it go 10s without having to change my wheels,
     
  14. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    Impressive gas mileage for a 533 HP big block...

    Even with higher RPM cruising at 70, thanks to the Qjet. :)

    Glad you had fun Larry. Cheers! :beers2:
     
  15. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Jim,
    Right now, I have the stock tachometer back in the dash. I really like the fact that the interior looks bone stock other than my gauges. I had my stock tach fixed, and it works, but it is very inaccurate mid range. I had an Autometer tach installed, that was very accurate, and I will now re install that because that is the only way I am going to be able to correctly get my governor right on. I believe the stock tach is reasonably accurate at the low and high end, but in the middle of it's range, it is off a good 3-400 RPM. When I had the Autometer installed, 70 MPH was about 2450 RPM. Now it reads 2800-3000. I know it is way off, but it looks so good in the dash:laugh:, I have resisted taking it out. The needle bounces a bit also. The one time I did glance at it through the traps, it was around 5300 or so. Next time the car goes down the track, it will have the Autometer installed for sure. This winter, I'll look into having modern guts installed in the stock tach. That will give me the best of both options. I really thought the fuel pump was the problem. Just goes to show you, even handicapped, that pump was doing the job.

    ---------- Post added at 08:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 AM ----------

    Thanks Mike,
    We missed you this year. It was a good time at the track. The car felt great to me, and it hooked every time, unlike last year. I have an SRE oil pan, and I am running 8 quarts of oil. I also have a balance line, and the tap for the gauge is closer to the rear. My oil pressure is perfect all the time. When I start it cold, it goes to 70 psi. After it warms up, it runs at 56 psi at anything over 1500 RPM. At the shift points fully warm, it is somewhere north of 70 psi. Even after 3 hours of highway driving at 70 MPH, it sits right at 56 psi. Idle pressure in gear, at 800 RPM is 24 psi. I have my governor set to shift at 5500 and 5400. I am going to up that to 6000. I also scaled the car at Cecil. It weighed 4010 with me in it, 3845 without me. I had about 3/4 tank of gas, and nothing in the trunk. I recall your car is somewhat lighter. Your car rocks. That video of you beating up on that Mercedes is one of my all time favorites.:TU:

    ---------- Post added at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------

    Thanks Gary,
    I had a lot of fun at the track. I was able to try both carburetors at the track. It literally took me 10-15 minutes to change carburetors, very easy to do. It's nice to know the car runs 11's with both carburetors. I know some were expecting more out of my car, but I am really happy with it, and I still have things to try.:grin:
     
  16. BuickGSrules

    BuickGSrules Gold Level Contributor

    Get a hold of Scott 87_GSGN or something, I bet he can fix your tach. Mine did the same as yours - I sent it to Scott and back it came with calibration cart and everything and it works perfect.
     
  17. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Scott did fix my tach. It is reasonably accurate at the low RPM and high end, but in the middle, it is off a lot. I spoke with Scott, and he said he could tweak it some, but I think the best solution is to install modern guts into the tach, and make it super accurate like an Autometer.
     
  18. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    I'd be beaming happy with a high 11 car that got 14 MPG. I'd leave that Qjet on there for the most part, and if you ever wanted to squeeze every last drop of power out of it, switch carbs and rip some ass! :TU:

    My brother had a '71 Dodge Challenger with a cammed up 10.5:1 440 with a single plane intake and headers (the rest was pretty much factory/no head work that I know of) with a 3.90:1 or 3.91:1 gear(whichever Mopar ratio) that ran 12.60's with slicks and factory stall, and he said he never got the car to get over 6 MPG lol.

    Of course, he was running a Holley...


    That car was stupid fast on the street. Scary and fun at the same time. My stock Buicks weren't quite able to take him on with that car, but at least mine weren't knocking after 6 months of owning them. :laugh:

    :TU: :beers2:
     
  19. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Thanks again Gary,
    Yes I am very happy. I know it will go faster. There are several easy things I will try, maybe before years end. I can try a 26" tire, shift it at 6000 RPM, and I can drop the exhaust. I might just go to a fixed pitch converter next year. We will see. For now, the Q-jet stays on for the street. I wasn't even trying to get good mileage and it did 14 MPG. I think if I really pay attention, it might do even better. Had the car loaded up pretty good also with my luggage, drag radials on heavy Buick wheels, and tools and spare parts.
     
  20. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Jim, you were asking "How much HP does the gear vendor suck up?" When it is disengaged the pump bleeds of the oil pressure so there is no hp loss at all, engaged on a 500hp engine the GV uses 3hp.
     

Share This Page