TA Aluminum Intake OR ALuminum Heads(this is for real)

I am going to say the headers would not fit. ow I did not read every post here but you need to consider a few things.
The deck height is much different than the Chevy and the width of the engine. I have seen folks modify Chevy headers in the past but nothing I'm ever interested in doing. We have talked about when the tooling is made that we could put a Stage2 type exhaust port in. The water jacket will be designed to accommodate that that style of exhaust port.

 

So two possible styles of head being considered. that great. Hope to hear more news and possible timeline as this progresses.

 

Mike, is it possible to machine one casting as either a stage 1 or a stage 2 design?

Jim

 

By the sounds of his last post that is what he is hoping to do... Cast the head so that either a stage 1 or stage 2 exhaust port could be machined in.

The problem with using a SBC flange is that then there are no bolt in headers for ANY cars or trucks where as using the existing Buick 350 exhaust pattern leaves the majority re-using the headers we have or buying a new set from TA that are already proven to fit well... Like people have said above, even if the head had a SBC flange pattern how well would a set of headers for a Chevelle really fit our Skylarks? We would be even worse off then we are now... At least now we have 3 or 4 brands of headers that fit the most common Buicks...

Anyone doing a Buick 350 swap into a brand X vehicle would need to build headers or modify some anyways, nothing much bolt in about these swaps... Believe me I tried doing a Buick 350 into a 81 Silverado 4z4 and it was a huge ordeal...

If a Stage 2 design is made in addition to the Stage 1 then TA would produce a matching set of headers at that time.

I just do not see the point in trying to design a set of heads based off of a header for another brand...

 

If TA wants to make sure only their headers will fit it, that's cool. As long as it gets made, I'm sure everyone will be pretty pleased. It just seemed like a good idea to make sure there were a readily available and good selection of tubed exhaust options available, but if it won't work, I guess TA will just have to make headers for it...

The Stage1 and Stage2 designs off one mold sounds great. That way people with existing headers won't have to buy new headers for a 'Stage2' or chevy style design. Versatility was the idea behind the chevy exhaust flanges, but with two types of heads being offered (if this will in fact be the case), that issue will be addressed.


Gary

 

Stage1 Stage2 would need its own tooling. Individual tools to make the exhaust ports and top half of the head. Intake ports, water jacket and combustion chamber tools would interchange. The Stage2 350 would be down the road but I am building in the possibility.

 

Nice!

 

Mike,
Not to discourage your efforts, but I have a question. If you are going to make an aluminum version of a stock head and I already have ported iron heads why would I spend $XXXX dollars PLUS more for porting to make the same power? Sure I will save about 40 pounds and can up my compression maybe 1/2 point and still use pump gas. To me it's not worth the cost.
Nobody is likely to buy an aluminum head for performance and then bolt on iron exhaust manifolds. If someone is going to shell out bucks for the heads they will surely spring for the headers. The head would not be legal for stock NHRA classes or pure stock racing so lets have a high performance head.

I say go for the stage 2 type exhaust right from the start. We can buy or make a header to match. Cast in extra material so we can raise the intake ports if we want. Also spread the valve centers so we can have larger valves.

TA is the leader in Buick performance.

 

Steve has a point. On another forum I was theorizing that these heads would have just about all the flow a street engine could handle right out of the box. Of course what they and you guys call a street engine might be a bit different...

But it does seem to make sense to go big right from the get-go. I think people would be disappointed if they didn't flow noticeable better than the Rover heads anyway.

Jim

 

Just because the Stage 1 heads will likely retain the exhaust flange pattern does not mean that the heads will produce the same power as stock iron heads. Look at what TA did with the 455 heads, out of the box they outflow most ported iron heads and with porting they can go WAY beyond what the irons are capable of.

Keep in mind that the iron heads have been ported to 290 intake and 190 exhaust and produced 550 HP with 8:1 compression with just 355 cubes. The same engine with boost made over 1000 HP and this was with a ported stock intake. The only issue with the iron heads is that it takes some serious time and trial and error to get these numbers. If a person could pick up a catalogue and order some ported iron 350 heads that flowed 260 intake and 180 exhaust then there would be far less demand for the alum. heads... But repeatability and the limited amount of people with extensive 350 head porting experience and time to do it make it hit or miss to have them ported.

Back when the 1021 HP engine was dynod Edelbrock made a prototype head and it never went anywhere because they were not interested in doing the R&D to develop the head into a winner... The head was dropped at that time... The difference this time is that TA will do the R&D and produce a high quality head like the 455 version.... And if it sells well then the Stage 2 version will be produced.

When TA comes out with a head it will likely flow as well as most ported iron heads right out of the box with room to grow from there... If people are spending $2000+ on porting and oversized valves on a iron set the alum. heads are looking pretty darn good being lighter, easier to port, and more meat where the stockers get thin from porting.

My engine is already at about 425 pounds complete with the turbos hung on each side, the alum heads would get me down even lower and that will be a potent package!

 

Well said Sean. :TU:

 

I have 1 3/4 TA headers and they are about 1/4-3/8 from the frame on the pass side. The heads I think should flow close to 300 or a touch over to get to a good performance level. I would expect that a Stage 2 header would be required for a new style Stage 2 head. Now that would be monster if that one happens. A 2-2 1/4 would be bada**. with flow way over 300, stick a turbo or Procharger on that and I would think we are rocking with the 455's. I know you guys want to use the cheaper Chevy header but I just think there will be more fabbing to make them work with all the angles.

 

The main idea behind using chevy headers was versatility and availability (to cater to the customer), not so much because they'd be cheap, although that would be a bonus as well. I thought it was a pretty clever idea, though it was shot down before it could ever even take off because no one likes the idea of chevy stuff on a Buick I guess.

That and it means header sales. For newcomers, that is. And it would piss off too many old customers, so whatever. I'm cool with all that. It was just an idea anyway.

Mike says it can't happen...which should make everyone happy who doesn't have to buy new headers (which is the the cheapest way for them) so saying it was so people could save money on headers is kinda hypocritical. :laugh:

Though I can also see Steve's point and it goes along with what Derek was suggesting. Stage2 or chevy style would fit way more applications, but that's not where the money's at, apparently. Money's where people own older classics and are willing to pay big bucks for every little part that needs to go on (or in) them. And they aren't going to want a stinkin chevy part on them (which is silly, since many GM parts are all interchangable).

So there's the elephant in the room. :TU:

As long as they follow a similar pattern the big block heads did, which is to outflow fully ported iron heads out of the box, then all will be well.

At the end of the day, all decisions are made by those who have the resources to make it happen. It's the golden rule: he who has the gold, makes the rules.


Gary

 

Gary,

I think the Chevrolet header idea was shot down more so because of considerable deck height and engine width differences, not just because its an evil "chebby" part laugh.

 

I suppose. Though it's not impossible, as has been mentioned, so the differences aren't apparently prohibitive of such a feat. As long as the thing is made and it's better than a fully ported iron counterpart, all's well! :TU:

Gary

 

Exactly
We're at least an inch wider overall then the sbc so fitment with chevy headers will most likely not fit if they're tight with a chevelle with 350

In a way cool idea but we do have long tube headers
Buick is a small market in gm performance so why force the already small group to ditch their perfect buick header for a chevy header
Shorties/turbo headers could be fitted into production later down the road...or people can get custom ones done at the shop if they true less needed

 

This.

I agree. The market will be more geared towards Buick fans who in all likelyhood already have a set of headers to use, as I said in my previous posting. There was much more said than simply inferring a possible reason for ditching the chevy header idea, though cherry picking one imperfection out of my statement and running with it is the most viable way of making a point, I suppose that's valid too in its own way. :laugh:

If the argument is purely deck height and width differences (because none of the rest could possibly be the reason, right?), the main issue is whether or not the chevy headers would fit the sides of the block, crossover, etc. though there's a pretty large selection of headers out there that fit various applications, so not all chevy headers fit the exact same (pouf, there goes that argument).

This is all moot anyways, since the decision is apparently etched in stone already, so not to worry fellas!

As long as everyone agrees with the decision maker's choice, then you get what you want! lol Not even Mike's wife can change his mind (as he's mentioned), what makes us think our opinions will fare any different? :laugh: (luv you Mike!)

I'm gonna try to backpedal out of this one best I can without taking too much flame damage! lol

Peace out


Gary

 

Hey im not flaming anyone nor do i plan to
I like ideas
As ideas comes off ideas
Just have to find the best one

 

All your ideas have debatable points. First the heads will not be a exact copy of stock. I need to sell this head to many not the few. 455 project showed me that more people were willing to purchase the Stage1 style verse Stage2. They could use parts they already had. I need to make this head use as many stock type parts as possible while leaving the door open for other options. When we released the Stage1 455 head the exhaust ports were right there with the Stage2 in regards to flow. Only when you were looking for a max effort did the Stage2 pull away from the Stage1. I have no trouble making a part that use Chevy components, these heads most likely will use Chevy valves for one. One other thing is I like hearing ideas, you never know who may come up with something that really makes sense and the path changes direction. But most things cost money and these projects have a limited budget. I will do the very best I can, I am known for detail, it drives my pattern maker and foundry's nuts. They say I'm hard to work with, but when were finished, almost all like what they see.
I will work hard on these projects.

 

Well said Mike! I have 100% confidence in you. :TU:


Gary

---------- Post added at 09:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

It's all good man. I just like to stick the ole broom handle in the beehive and see what happens sometimes. I got my runnin' shoes on. :grin: