421 Pontiac vs. Buick dual quad 425

Way back there I had a '65 Pontiac GP with the 421 2.73 gears. Dad had a '67 Cat w/3.07. That GP would pull away from the cat at any speed-

 

My oldest brother had a 2+2 catalina. It was a 421 convert. It would fly. I have rode in a lot of Pontiac's I can and will say the 421 car were the fastest that Pontiac ever put out. That's to include a 455 sd trans am and a 428 SCJ Gran Prix.

 

If I remember right the 389s and the 421s were the poncho motors that would actually rev well. Not sure of the bore stroke combinations anymore but I believe the 421 was a 389 on roids.

Steve

 

So I guess this gut wasn't just blowing smoke........I never realized those 421's were so powerful. I want one of those! :Brow:

 

So I guess this gut wasn't just blowing smoke........I never realized those 421's were so powerful. I want one of those!



Joe- NOOOOOOOO, Just make the nail faster!!!!!! :3gears: :beers2:

 

If I remember right the 389s and the 421s were the poncho motors that would actually rev well. Not sure of the bore stroke combinations anymore

Code:

Disp  Bore  x Stroke  Actual
421   4.094 x 4.000   421.25
389   4.060 x 3.750   388.39

the 421 is the large crank bearing ( 3 1/4" ) and so would be considered a 'Big' Pontiac to a Poncho guy.

no answer from anybody on how hard you could wind those things?

 

Yes-the 421-428-455 had the larger journals-the 326-350-389-400 had 3". (Geeze and the nails are what... 2 1/2", but forged) All based on the same block. I reved that 421 plenty-no issues-and the Pontiac oil pump is in the pan-where it belongs!

 

I'd say 6000 rpm (these were solid lifter motors). 5000 rpm for a hydraulic lifter engine.

We shifted our '65 GTO (389 cu in) at 7000, but it had quite a bit of work done on the valvetrain and had single deep groove pulleys for the alternator belt.

I also found a note that showed Wangers car going 12.10 in 1963 in A/FX trim.

I apologize but this is the only picture I could find already scanned of our car:

 

I could never do it.......it's a pride thing......but I wonder how hard it would be to get a 421 in my Riv and make look original? :Brow:

"hey, it was one of those COPO cars"! :idea2: p

 

Rpm?

After I crashed the 2+2, the 421 was translpanted into a 69SS 4spd Chevelle.
Then a few years later it was transplanted into a 70GPSJ. It was still running fine last I remember.

Just guessing(hard to remember for sure), I probably shifted at or around whatever the factory tach(in the 2+2), redline said. seems like it was 5000 RPM.
I was young and reckless as hell. Also, I remember missing third gear quite a few times...

My brother owned the Chevelle, he dogged the heck out of it. I dont think he had a tach. He probably missed more gears than me...

The 62SD Cat did not have a tach. I basically dropped the hammer and then changed into second as fast as I could grab it. Then third after about a second. It wound out real fast. I never raced the Cat. I just drove it around on the street playing with it. It was geared too low for me.

The 2+2 was raced quite a bit on the backroads and the stoplight drags. I spanked the local drag racing icon(Larry Dean), in his 66SS 396 4spd Chevelle. Me and the fellow riding shotgun(David Swindall), could not believe it...

Bert

 

Hell Joe, if you told me it was a COPO Rivi' I wouldn't argue, (what the hell do I know anyway) I probably get into a drunkin fist fight defending the lie for ya :bla: :beers2:

 

Leaving the 421 SDs 's( factory built race car vs dual quad nailhead executive machine) out of the picture. I would never pit a naihead on a long winded run 100+. I was always more comfortable at a 20 mph roll start, plenty of torque and no worry about the torque melting the tires for a dead stop. No experiance with with modified nailheads though ,but my stock 65 GS beat plenty of Ponchos and Oldsy that were evenly matched. I also think a lot of nails in big cars were at disadvantages because they usually were geared for comfort driving versus your Pontiac crowd that aways seemed packaged a little more for performance when they landed on the show room floors. If you look at some old road tests from the Mags this rings true. I think a 421 say tripower boat vs a 425 CAT both geared correctly for their respective motors is a pretty good headsup match .
I have plenty of respect for Tin Indians owning a RAM AIR III Firechicken back in the day also.

 

I guess this answers part of the question...:laugh:

http://v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=133843

 

In 1968 I had a stock 401 GS thin piller coupe, My buddy had a 65 4-spd 421 2+2 catalina. However we did it I would beat him or his buddy driving, Didn't matter by a car length everytime !! Best time for my 65 was 14:10 with 9 inch cheater slicks, speed was 98 mph Gary / moz

 

I have a book with magazine test all listed in it. Some of the cars had the "Bobcat Pontiac" treatment and other super tuned by various Brand boosters. Most were showroom tests. Here are two.

1964 showroom Pontiac Catalina 428 3-2barrels 4-speed 15.7 ET 4000 Lbs.
1964 showroom Buick Wildcat 425 single carb 4-speed 16.0 ET 4400 Lbs.

The weight differance would make them about even.

I have said on here before, the stock 2-4BL Buick was SLOWER with a 16.7 ET!

 

The wildcat w/ 425 or larger supercats made many people believe they had unlimited top end. I remember when people would make outrageous claims about old cars especially the Buicks, Caddys and Pontiacs. .. That Wildcat with a 425 or larger was almost exactly like the Millenium Falcon of the Concrete Interstate. Made the Richmond to Savannah run in under 12 parsecs. Still can't believe Mom sold it for $1700. It cost double that in therapy fees to sort out my disorder from the loss of a true wildcat. No prozac will ever be big enough! I still think the major reason lil old ladies loved them Wildcats ...is.... When they had to watch the grandkids on Sunday (and back then they didn't really use carseats) When lil Johnny was told to sit down and wouldn't.... She'd stomp on the pedal and youd fling right back into the seat..with a bad case of scoliosis.
OH sweet JEsus
. I miss my militant german great grandma.. She was the best!!

 

Well...torque can be useful in so many more ways than just stomping the competition, it's almost not even funny.

 

Don't feel bad. Dad sold his for $500.. KX coded... :rant:

 

in 1978 i was 6 yrs old and vividly remember my 16 yr old brother telling me that the 2 door 4 on the floor version of our wildcat was the nastiness of the 60's....
He claimed that the 2dr 4 speed wildcats could outpull and outrun just about any musclecar for those years of '63 thru '66. I just loved the car regardless.. 4 door 2 door o No: it didnt matter when it was a buick..:Smarty: What exactly was the KX coded wildcat? I'm not up to par on the details of wildcats..
Even though the '64 wildcat we had is the reason why i LOVE buicks so much

 

The engine code "KX" refers to the 425 CID engine with twin four barrel Carter AFB carburetors. That was the largest engine Buick offered in 1964, putting out 360 hp and 465 ft lbs of torque @ 4400 RPMs. :Smarty: Dad sold the Wildcat in 1980 and didn't own another Buick until 1992. I'm with you, that 'Cat hooked me on Buick Wildcats.