I was erring on the conservative side. Don't need people with potentially minimal experience in powerful rear-wheel drive cars flying about doing things that take a lot of experience and full working knowledge of the car to achieve with a reasonable degree of safety. A 59 Invicta is nothing like my 66 Electra or the 67 Wildcat. The torque tube drive and the balance point of the front wheels leave a lot to be desired. Those cars are tail happy and tend to oversteer. The tube shocks are still an after thought to a system that was better suited to handle knee actions. Ball joints and sway bars were in their infancy, and even the location and design of the steering gear with it's ball and socket tie rod bar left a lot to be desired and isn't safely rated to handle power steering with radial tires. They're late a late 50s rework of a 1950 design. The 61 and newer Buicks were much, much better handlers. I like a big late 60s Buick for it's road manners, they were always better than anything else of comparable size. Yes, mine are slightly worn, the Delco Pleasurizers are still in the Wildcat. The ball joints and the bushings are pretty old, but since they don't see much use, they aren't that bad. Not as good as new of course, but the cars were easily controllable at high speeds. I made a mistake on the axle ratios of both of my cars; it's actually 3.07. 80-85 is comfortable for the motor, and a little bit of a fight. Certainly not as easy as my 01 LeSabre, which is one-finger driving at those speeds. Radial tires help immeasurably though. The scariest thing I ever did and it was what seems to be a millennia ago was to run a 69 'Cat with the 2.56 up to max RPM (4200) which worked out to about 140 mph. I had redone the suspension and it was a good thing I did. Flew over an approach at top speed and caught a little bit of air. The car landed, I fought with it, managed to get it stopped, threw my shorts in a ditch and cracked a beer as it was my new "birthday". Had I done this in any other car except that Cat I wouldn't be here right now. This is most certainly not something that a stock suspension system in a 59 or 60 Invicta will handle. I've owned those cars, I know how they handle.
ANYTHING can be made to do ANYTHING you want. Depends at how many $$$$ your willing to throw at it. Just my thought
Alright folks. I started this thread off leaning towards my "Engine" rebuild saga, and it unraveled, as these things tend to do, in the direction of the transmission. I have ZERO complaints about this, as I have had PLENTY to chew on for the last 3 months this thread has been active, and my block has been at this "new" shop. BUT, to get back to the engine element for a moment or two... Its been about 3 months or so since I got my block/heads etc back from Nightmare Shop #1.. I promptly took it to the next recommended shop in my area, and have had a similar encounter... This is becoming quite disheartening, as the so-called machinists in my area have a severe lack of interest in treating this old Nailhead to the attention it deserves, and requires at this point. My patience is great, but only stretches so far... They've had it for 3 months now, I picked up my heads today with no supplied clearances, and they also cannot seem to figure a way to properly help me install my cam straight, as the bearings/bores seem to be slightly tweaked.. Also, They've supplied me with ZERO numbers in general, which is frighteningly similar to my previous encounter at the first shop. Im debating on pulling the plug with yet another shop, and picking up the rest of my block tomorrow.. The heads have ZERO clearances supplied today, as I've picked them up... "They seem fine" was all I was assured in regards to stem height, seating area, installed heights of springs etc... I have paid, and will pay NOTHING for this "work". I understand shops have jobs that seem to outrank others, but F#CK... Theres just apparently no interest in helping me along with this rebuild, locally anyway. A 7 hr drive to drop this project off with Mr Telesco is seeming more and more do-able at this point... SO!!! For those who have taken the time to read these ramblings, here is where I'm at today... * I have a set of heads Id like to "redo" to accept 11/32" valves/Bee Hive springs while I still have the chance--- Instead of my 3/8" I initially chose to go with...Ill need help with this, for sure, as the numbers of certain parts for this customization seem top secret, admittedly, understandably. * I have found a gentleman locally who has a set of Toms Rockers for sale, and I am going to check them out and more than likely purchase them. * In the meantime, I do not know anything further about how my block checks out in reality--- Bore, Deck height, Squarness, lifter Clearances, Main Clearances, etc.. * I am almost certain my caps for my rods were mixed up, and they still need resizing. This seems to be one of the most impending dilemmas regarding the "block" anyway. To top this side-show off, My heads were also "gouged" at this new shop.. Any Idea how to rectify this, other than mill them, which I don't want to do? I know this post/page has a lot going on, but that seems to be the busy nature of such a rebuild. LOTS to do and decipher still, but heres a picture of that gouge. Thanks for reading, and to those who have chimed in, in any fashion!
Also, which way should the gasket instal against the head. Details of gouge location are in these pictures as well.
One of the complications to your questions is that rebuilders can effectively rebuild engines without a full blueprint of your parts. The way things fit and feel tells a story. Fit can and often does supercede numerical specs. Although there are some close tolerances in places, engines were fairly crudely machined and things are far from perfect, negating rigid specs. Most places aren't equipped to fully supply blueprint dimensions... they cut surfaces flat and true, install new parts. Just a couple of examples would be; Deck squareness. Best ways for them to tell is to take a cut...or at least traverse an indicator around the part which means you should be paying for that once it gets clamped into the machine. You could obtain a 12" caliper for maybe $50 and check the corner cylinders, but you wouldn't really be able to detect any block twist or other distortions. A straightedge and feeler gauges only tell so much and are time consuming. Lifter and valve stem clearance. The way that they feel sliding in their home is more relevant than a #. The bore gauge might show a diameter at any given point but the bore itself isn't perfectly true. It's tough to get a bore gauge to read where there's an intersecting hole. It would fit more snug if the bore had a slight curve to it, regardless of clearance spec. You can usually feel if there's a burr or any grit that would contribute to failure. Nobody is going to put much unpaid time into blueprinting something to wait for an OK from the customer when they are usually the least qualified to make technical decisions. Shops can be hesitant to supply specs when, 1. they don't spend time to record them and 2. don't want liability or to see a customer come back in 6 months with a failure, claiming that something was a few tenths beyond what some "forum expert" recommends. Even though your concerns for quality are very valid, most will addre$$ your concern$ ba$ed on willingne$$ to do what it take$, with a minimum of hassle along the way. I hope I'm not painting a neanderthal picture of "ree-bilt it shops" but many are capable of creating a running engine without super precision GD&T practices. Shipping is fairly cheap if you want to send stuff to someone you trust better. General info... Caps that surpass just catching a fingernail where the mating faces meet are off by more than what a light grind and hone will fix. If you have them all and don't mind an all day puzzle it would be cheaper than a shop's time. Probably cheaper for you just to buy new rods. (I shipped out my last set of stock rods, and dealt with enough internet hassles to negate the purchase price!) A scratch on a surface might not be an issue if a fire ring misses it or there's no nearby water. You can put a straightedge across the valve stems and see where they are at. You can take a lifter around all the bores and check for a consistent fit and feel. Anything more than a fingernail catching at the top of the bore needs work. (You might be able to hone it a tad bit, but a shop might not want to beat up their stones going across that...ridge reamers suck, too.) They won't begin until you have new pistons in hand. If your head work is done, there's not going to be any measurable performance better from switching to smaller valve stems and beehives, you are just wasting $$. If you are wanting to do another set with those parts, porting and specific seat specs is where the improvements are at, the new parts will compliment that. Clearances and tolerance stack up is determined when all of the parts are machined and mocked up with all of the related components. Where it ends up is based on having it all and doing it...or a random guess from how it measures at mock up. A rebuilder is going to go by the AERA book or maybe not want to deal with you. Good luck on your project.
UPDATE : 6-17-17 Since the last time I posted, I managed to present enough documentation to the original "Nightmare Shop" mentioned in this thread to get a FULL refund of 1400.00 for the work/ lack thereof on my 'Nail. I have a FULL BUILD SHEET that took me many, many hours to make. 5 pages, fully color-coded and sectioned, if anyone is interested. I MAY post it on here to see what you guys think, but back to the build... I took the money and ran home where my fully disassembled block / crank / rods etc with ALL accompanying parts for assembly have been sitting at idle. I now am at the point where I'm looking for a shop locally that would be interested in helping me measure/ blueprint my parts for final assembly or to determine if I need further machine work / corrective work. I CAN ONLY HOPE the "Nightmare Shop" hasn't ruined my block. I measured the crank with the only real set of machinist tools I have, which are Mitutoyo Micrometers, and the crank is cut just a little smaller than .010 under for both Rods and Mains. Heres what I do / do not know, in summary : I don't know my bearing clearances / crush, or any numbers requiring a bore gauge, as I do not have one or any other machinist tools id need at my disposal at the moment. Rods seem to have had the caps mixed up (should be picking up a set VERY soon, that have not had the caps mixed up) My block was supposedly decked to ZERO deck for my stock rods and custom pistons (10.0025 Deck) The main bores were Align Honed, material removed from caps, when I told them not to... to avoid a lose timing chain My heads have seats... I'm on the hunt for a set of virgin heads to build differently this time around with 11/32 valves, beehive springs, etc... I DID however find a gentleman within driving distance from me, and was able to score a set of Tom's Rockers from him! I'm excited about that, as they allow for higher lift through the increased ratio up to 1.9 . The gentleman also had a set of "Race Heads" which were "Emission Heads" which have a lump in the casting for emissions, which is a provision for better/safer porting of the exhaust according to him. However, they were ported and assembled with Beehives and the 11/32" Manley Valves by a man named Jim Bureck. After a quick google, I found that he has a terrible rep as of late. Should I touch those heads with a ten foot pole?! They're for sale, and I have the opportunity to salvage my build with the machine shop money returned to me, but must proceed with caution. Attached are pictures of Toms Rockers :Brow: and the topside of the heads in question, that are available to me (2400), and some cutaway views from a set of his trial run-porting heads. I know again, this is a lot to chew on. Thanks to all readers, and contributors past, present, and future. This community has helped me immensely. I just need a little further help to make this dream come to fruition!
7-29-16 UPDATE I have been very busy this summer, but have taken the last few days to source a gentleman locally who seems to have an abundance of patience and willingness to help me with my rebuild / blueprinting numbers and any work necessary to correct any potential screw-ups from the "Nightmare Shop", provided the part/block is repairable. What I liked the most about this man, Greg, at http://www.laurel-auto.com in Henrico, Va, was the amount of time he gave me in regards to the 'consultation visit' I made with him to discuss my needs and expectations. His facility is capable of measuring my parts while supplying ALMOST all of the procedures and Blue Print numbers id like (minus my lifter-bore angles)... EVEN balancing in-house when I get to that stage! I need to decide 100% on my transmission at this point... SO, in the next couple of weeks, I should have some freshly supplied numbers in my Build Sheet ( Viewable at http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?311394-Will-Cardens-Build-Sheet&highlight=build+sheet )from someone who is seemingly MORE than competent, and understanding that this is a big deal to me! In the mean time, upon consultation, I mentioned how Id like to grind / polish the forge marks out of my rods ( We straightened out the "mixed up cap" situation I believe I mentioned previously to avoid custom / or replacement stock rods ) Heres pictures of my work. Should I have him Resize, then Balance, THEN have them Shot-Peened? I have differing input on the order of which these should be performed... Thanks again, if you're reading along, especially with input!
I feel really bad for your bad experience with that nightmare shop. I am still learning about alot of this stuff, but I would like to share my experience with my 59 doing similar work. I had a highly respected local shop rebuild my 59 nailhead, and made sure every week/day sometimes I would stop in to make sure they weren't doing a dreaded "Chevy" style rebuild. I am glad you found someone you can TRUST to do your machine work. That will make for a better experience and higher quality work to boot. I saw you mention Russes trailing arm kit. I got that kit for my 59 and I do like it. I no longer have the car, but I still have the kit (if you want it I will be reasonable on price). Its well built, and fairly simple to install. You are wise to keep the dynaflow to center the rear to mount it first. It sounds like you are doing the same driveline conversion I was doing to my 59 (Awesome that you got a 61-62 POSI!). A few things to look out for. The rear end shock mounting locations on the rear end need moved with this kit (that is where the U bolts and brackets mount to the rear) (I had a jack it up 4X4 shop mount mine, cut the driveshaft, swap the dyna for my SP400, and swap carriers/rebuild the rear end). That cost around $700 all together. I brought in the parts and they just did the grunt work. The driveshaft I used was from the same car the trans came out of (66 Electra). With this mounting kit you WILL need a 2 piece driveshaft. The cross member will mount about 3 to 4 inches (on the Lesabre model anyways) behind the frame cross member under the driveshaft. The carrier bearing on mine was mounted at the back of the cross member for the rear mounting kit. I didn't have the body on the frame at the time, but I WAS concerned about rear floor pan interference. With your 59 on air you will have to be even more cautious and might have to channel clearance reliefs in the rear floor pans! What many of the guys said about transmission choice is great advice. I went with a sp400 because I was building a 'traditional' cruiser (no electronic BS). It was cheap, easy to mount everything, and hook up the trans. If you are wanting a O/D trans with lockup why would you want to pay the extra money for a 4L series trans? A slightly updated 200R4 (which is smaller and lighter then the TH400 variants), or a 700R4 will hold up just fine to that 401. They both can come in lockup and both have O/D. They also use a mechanical speedo cable (a must for a 59), TV cable instead of a electronic brain (which a universal kit for that is AT LEAST in the $600 range). The 200 has a o/d ratio of .67 and a great gear set for moving a big 59. The 700 doesn't have a gear spread quite as good as the 200, but the O/D is .7 which depending on your tire size, rear end gear will get you better mileage in O/D then a .67 ratio. I am putting a 200 or 700 behind my 455 when I get it done (600 horse and torque as a "magic" number) Your factory con rods are good from the factory, however if I take 455 rods as a example grinding flash marks down, and shot peening will add a extra measure of insurance that you don't have a rod fail on you. I would ASSUME the same is true for nailhead rods. It might also be a good idea to consider if ARP rod bolts should be used like on the 455 rods for moderate builds. Toms roller rockers are very nicely built I have heard and will be a great addition to your motor. Also depending on the RPM you want to rev it, be sure to have strong enough valve springs. Stock springs are good for 4800 rpm give or take. I have heard nailheads don't like high RPM well for power. When I had my 364 dynoed with a stock 59 401 cam, and stiffer valve springs WITH stock rockers it kept making HP up to MY personal MAX rpm of 5500! With those rollers, a GOOD performance cam, and headers if you go that route You may find it wants to keep making power past what you were planning on (that was my experience). With 265 ish hp out of mine I was a little disappointed, but that was reality setting in. With roller rockers, a carb spacer, and good performance cam I should be able to get around 300 horses, but I would have to ensure the motor can safely handle 6000 rpm in case the power maxes out around there. I wish you the best with your delta wing!
I hope this doesn't sound harsh... You should write that shop a check and not bother them with your micro-management. If they have satisfied your concerns following the lengthy consultation, the last thing they need from you is direction or any unsolicited input. They don't need an untrained customer giving them advice on their profession...esp. advice that came from browsing the internet :shock: If they need anything from you, I'm sure they will ask. I'm sorry that your past experiences compel to micro-manage the next place. BTW...even though it feels better to have polished off those rods, they won't be strengthened any by using a shotpeen blaster. There is a specific procedure not capable by the vast majority of shot blasters being used. The good news is...they shouldn't be weakened any and if it helps you feel better about the safety of this very mild project, it's worth the time and $$ spent. If your newly selected shop isn't capable of handling a very simple machining procedure without your guidance, you have again selected an incompetent shop. You should ask them what they need from you and offer them only your full, uncontested cooperation. [BTW, if you are getting differing input on how to go about your rods, you are listening to untrained and inexperienced people...a true waste of time] With that...I wish the best for your project Good luck.
I must say I agree As a tradesman with a number of years experience under my belt, I have found 3 ways to deal with customers that want to micro manage a job or "help", first is to closely listen to what they require and want to know, pick out the relevent points, assure them its all good, then wait until they are gone and get on with the job Second is to advise them that the extra useless detail they are asking for will double the initial quote because of the extra time needed to perform the tasks requested (this normally changes their mind) Or Third, "Sorry, I am to busy to take on your job" and save myself much hassle By the way, I am an auto electrician and because I work with what cant be seen, a lot of people consider it magic and think that magic fixes it, so its really, how much does magic cost
I will ask another question, and its one I find relevant to the remark about the shop refunding me for the work THEY DID NOT DO COMPETENTLY or at all... IF, under your watch, in YOUR shop, you and your men did a job thats up to snuff, and you know that in your heart... Would you refund the full amount? I think that is testament to the NIGHTMARE that was my encounter with that shop, and as big of a LIAR as that owner was, he understood that they failed to provide me with what I paid for. Thats not too hard to understand, is it? If he thought or KNEW they did me right, he wouldve kept that $. His words were "I know we f#cked up"... If he DIDN'T compensate / reimburse me, I was ready with legal counsel to pursue the full amount plus damages, and i think he was more than aware that I had had enough... MOVING ON, as stated, this new shop and the owner GLADLY took the time to show me how he could satiate my build, and the numbers I have not been supplied.. I did not waste his time, nor has he wasted mine. A very kind gentleman, who is knowledgeable and even assured me my points and concerns were valid (minus the lifter bore angles which he thought was a tad overkill). THAT is reassurance. Also, majority of the advice I've been given and have mulled over, is from our very own community here at V8Buick.com. I'm not saying everyone is the brightest bulb in the box, but there are members here whose words of advice and encouragement are ALWAYS appreciated, and have helped me more than they know. I believe they know who they are as well!! haha Happy rodding to us all, and I WILL report back as soon as I hear something from my shop, and I get these rods off to them... EVERYONES advice and words has been taken in, and gotten me this far, so thanks again guys. Im hoping to have her fired up by Xmas.
Certainly (!) under certain circumstances . I don't remember what this was related to in this thread, but I've paid people to go away. There have been other times in which it's obvious people are only after $$ (such as selling on Ebay and the many scams related)...those I have no problem with standing my ground on principle alone. Not sure if this helps your query, but keep in mind I am not a "publicly accessed shop", and don't rely on those type of relations.
To answer your question, yes I would and have refunded to get rid of a problem customer, some are just not worth the hassle. You said that you were ready , willing and able to take legal action for the total amount and expenses, thats the point, better to let you have your win and push you out the door than have to deal with all the garbage that goes along with legal action, not to mention the lost time with lawyers and the court time itself I am not defending the first workshop, as I do not know them or their work and I should re read the entire post, but apart from not being told details and the rod caps being mixed up, has there been anything actually wrong with the machine work? And did you ask for all the detail you wanted at the start of the job? From memory of reading this, a lot of the measurements you want require them assembling the engine, is that what you wanted? I am sorry, you hit a nerve
We had a clear mission statement. I actually spent hours with them before we began any machine work, before I brought parts, etc. MUCH like the shop i am working with now. However, they failed miserably, and performed machinist operations that I specified to NOT have done (Align Honing) and cutting of my block potentially brining the sprockets closer together, they could not and would not get my cam to fit, valves would not slide into guides. Was twice the quote I was given, and was still charged for it all, including the NON fitment of cam/guides etc.. just to touch upon a few details of the nightmare. I won't waste another second re-hashing that. I am dropping off my rods tomorrow at my current shop, and we'll discuss either spot facing the caps to get the ARP 455 nuts to clear, or from what I've measured and verified with ARP, that the 300-8302 nuts (300-8332 in a 10pk) 12pt. Nuts are .025 SMALLER in O.D., use a 7/16 wrench, and in theory should spare us the expense of spot facing, and we can proceed. Per usual, ill report back. Wish me continued luck!
No need to re hash. I'm offering no opinion to either side and agree with your point on what the end results were. What I'm saying is that you would be crossing the line to attempt to manage the next place's methods. If they are good, just tell them your concerns and stay out of their way. I warn people that I'm charging for phone or visit time if they get too nosy. Your previous experience leaves you in a difficult position, but you still shouldn't be trying to take charge with the next place. Prototype machine shops use a well clarified print as the main communication, along with inspection processes that give both sides accountability. When I brought to market the aftermarket cylinder heads, the prints were incorrect, the conversion from SAE to Metric had errors, there were bad hits and programming problems with the CMM inspection, and the NOS OEM part used as the standard was out of spec. to begin with. THAT is some accountability to sort through there. The accountability of hundreds of thousands of dollars, long term contracts, and people having to fly halfway around the world IS something to consider litigation for. Suddenly a small pile of worn out Buick parts doesn't seem like it's worth it for anyone to use legal leverage over... If you want to be able to hold a place accountable for such a small amount of $$, maybe you should agree on the final dimensions and simply stay out of their process. Since I don't get involved with resto or 'overhaul' work and everything is custom machined or new...I've found it's better to grind a crank to fit a different type of new rod than to spend a minute of time working on an old one that is tough to replace (as an example). For what you have into rebuilding a 55 year old rod, you could start with a new Pontiac, B455, maybe a BBC rod. Just offering a different perspective. Best of luck on this.
No micro-managing, as far as I am concerned, but I do see how some would misconstrued my attempts to not repeat the past. I supplied and cited him with my concerns, previous issues w the work, and the #s I was wanting within our consultation. He provided me with answers and suggestions, respectfully and showed me around the shop even. If thats micro-managing to some, I disagree. I just wanted/needed to make sure 100%, undeniably, that my requirements were met, and he was more than understanding of that. It was well-received on BOTH ends, and I have high-hopes and expectations that he'll provide me with the same work and service we agreed upon. Today 8-3-16 I made the 3.5 hour drive from Disputanta, Va to Salem, Va to the closest Shot-Peening facility in my state. Terry, at National Peening was yet again another extremely helpful guy to encounter. I dropped the rods off with an agreed-upon expectation / end result again, and they delivered within 4 hrs. I hung around town and patiently waited. They even gave me an Almen Strip and the certification paper of the specs the rods were "peened" to. It could not have been more prompt or professional. If anyone searches the site for Shot Peening and reads this, contact Terry at http://nationalpeening.com in Salem, Va. Tomorrow, Ill throw some new rod-bolts & nuts in the rods, after I measure the bolts' overall length w my stretch gauge, and they'll be off to my machinist for resizing and balancing and finally pressed onto the beautiful pistons Tom helped me craft. ( New bolts/nuts are being purchased as Ive been advised to NEVER use shot-peened rod bolts or nuts ) That first shop threw my original hardware away, and due to time constraints, this is and was my best approach to moving forward.
