Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by Joe65SkylarkGS, Oct 27, 2009.
Sean, are you sure about that. what is different about the heads?
As far as I know the 300 and 340 heads are identical???
i had a NOS set of each and they were identical
I guess I should clarify that there are 3 different types of 300 heads:
1. the 64 Alum heads
2. the 65 Iron heads
3. the 66 Iron heads
Looking at a casting #1374870 (65 300) compared to the casting #1376330 (66 300/340) the intake passages look different to me, I should cc the chambers.
There is a lot of decent info on this thread but I would like something more specific. I have a 64 300 wildcat 310 in my 64 Special. I have acquired a 64 4bbl intake. The motor is stock with 95k on the odometer. I am looking to have the engine rebuilt. Could someone please provide a parts list and a list of machining mods that should be done to this engine to obtain a streetable rod. All the talk of stroking with a 350 crank and turbos and such really distract from this thread as they are all theoretical. This will be a N/A motor.
I am looking for specific information such as.
1. Oiling Mods I should have my machinist perform/part number for oil pickup tube if oil pickup is drilled out.
2. Current available cam/lifter/valve spring/rocker options.
3. Piston/Rod options.
4. Timing Cover mods oil pump mods etc., will a rover timing cover work with a distributor as I like the option of a crank driven oil pump.
5. Front and rear seals I would like to go to neoprene instead of old school.
Basically I was hoping this thread would give a definitive parts list and modification list to beef up this little motor which I don't believe this thread does.
Well, first off, building a MIGHTY 300 (this thread) would imply some performance talk. So, take it easy on those of us who are looking to do some radical work.
A call to TA Performance will show you a plethora of cam/valve train combos. So many, in fact, that it may be difficult to choose what you want!
The rods and crank are pretty tough in stock form. TA can blueprint those, since they can blueprint 350 rods. I am pretty sure you can use aftermarket Buick V6 rods as well, since the 300 is on the same architecture as the 231 V6. I know if you bore your 300 .050 out, you can use standard 231 pistons and rods with no problem at all.
Rover timing cover should work fine, according to the stroker 300 article (the one where they put the 350 crank in)
Buick V6 neoprene seals should work.
As to oiling mods, I have two books that I consult. The first one is the Buick Power Source (turbo V6 manual) and the second is a high performance Buick engine book that I bought from eBay.
Both books point to some key things to do. First, you need to buy the TA Performance grooved front cam bearing. Its pretty much a must on all Buick V8 rebuilds except the nailhead. I also like to gasket match the timing cover and engine block where the oil passages go. I gasket match the block to pickup tube as well. My books also speak of boring out the main oil galley in the block to 9/16", and using a die grinder with a round bit to smooth all the transitions in the oil galleries that you can get to. I used to cut a groove in the front cam bearing hole, but now that TA makes that slick bearing I don't do it anymore. I also chamfer all the oil holes at the main bearing bores.
TA has all the big pickup tubes and everything else. You should call them and download their catalog so that you can peruse it.
Good luck on your rebuild!
I built my 300 ''back in the day'' when you had to do everything the hard way.... now days you have good cams, good ign. systems, good valve springs ect... but basicly the engine is a 6000 rpm engine,, no more.... and I regularly wound mine up that tight and it lived... no problems,,, but you have to remember that the crank is cast iron, not steel... so to really trick one out , a man could have it hard chromed and ground to spec... that would improve the durability of it.... then you have to deal with the rod/piston situation,,, for street/strip stock rods, and pistons are fine,,, but buy forged pistons if you can afford them... that is what I used... forged trw's.... oil mods,, just use your brain.... you can enlarge the pick up some... blue print the oil pump,,, ect....
use good tri-clad bearings... and all steel timing chain and gears.... run a 180 deg. thermostat with a oversize radiator... and a good fan system...with a shroud.... smaller crank pulley would be some benifical but dont get crazy with it.... just a little smaller....
DDP mod on the intake, with great care, will be very benifical, dist. recurve, and a cold air pkg... all these work very well, because, I have done them and know that they work good... port match the intake, heads, and exhaust manifolds... use a good 3 angle valve job.... roller rockers if you can come up with some....
switch pitch trans and a good performance gear in the back...
Lighten the vehicle as much as possible.... firm up the suspension.... good wide tires to get the power to the ground... locker differential....
I did not intend on dissing the "radical mods" but this thread did not really appear as guide to building the mighty 300 as I saw it. When I proceed with my build I will write up a guide to as what I do.
Thanks again for the input I will get the books mentioned.
I was looking for something to the tune of.
I had the machine shop do this and that.
I bought these internals with part numbers.
I bought these externals with part numbers.
There just did not seem to be a consensus on parts and or machine work as there is on lets say a chebby website. Like we all run this combination to achieve x. Or stay away from doing this and that.
I will write up a guide and post it here when I complete this project.
Kelly ,,, go to the wrenchin secrets section and read my list of cheap tricks there....just some ideas....:laugh:
Also, things like oiling mods have been discussed ad nausium in these threads, apply to all Buick engines, and can be found with a simple search.
That's not to say you shouldn't ask. It's just that you should not insist on a speedy answer if it's something you could have just as easily looked up.
And along that line... I know the 215 heads have some exhaust manifold bolts that are drilled into the water jacket and you have to put sealant on the threads or you'll have anti-freeze dripping off the exhaust pipes. The '64 300 heads have a lot in common with the 215 heads. But do they also have that problem? Anybody know right off hand for sure?
Hi Kelly, I'm not into all the intricate mods myself. That's why I quit responding to this post. I saw the direction it was going so just quit. I didn't do all the stroking, piston and rod changing stuff myself. I did a lot of little things that really added up. Ran like hell. Just ask some of the 350 chebby guys I beat. It's really the air flow that counts. From the air horn to the ehxaust tips. Forget about the Aluminum parts. They're too much of a hassle to modify. Runners and valves are too small. Sure, you can open them up but not as far as you can open up the iron pieces. Get the cleanest and smoothest air flow you can. Port match everything. I could go into all the little stuff I did but it would take up too much space. Get in touch if you want more.
Now all the aluminum parts guys can start flaming.:rant:
Ponch I basically agree with you. I'm only using the aluminum heads on my current build because the calculated static compression ratio is 12.5:1 and I figured that the aluminum heads would help me in the detonation area. Though I'm still expecting to run race fuel. However, you're correct in the port flow comparisons.
For example, I had Greg Gessler port me (2) sets of 300 heads, one set cast iron and one set aluminum. The cast iron heads had his "level 3" full port and rebuild. These heads flowed 196/134 @ .600" lift. The aluminum heads had his "level 4" full port, big valves, etc, etc and they flowed 179/138 @ .600" lift. There may be some additional flow there but I'm not too sure. I told him it was a max effort engine and to get me his max and that's what I got.
Sean, was there a smog (A.I.R. injection) head in 1966?
Kelly, that would be great! Ponch has posted pics of his head work, a couple guys have recommended cams (watch retainer-guide clearance), and maybe I relayed the tip from Sean Etson about using ARP 283 chevy rod bolts.
All ingredients for a basic hp rebuild.
Oil system mods from the 350-455 would apply to the 300. I'd guess the booster plate and correct tolerances would be sufficient for a 300.
Matt, Good to see some numbers. How do they compare at 0.450" lift?
I'm also curious at what rpm the small port alum 4bbl intake becomes a hindrance on my iron head 300....
Walt - here's the complete flow tests for both sets of the Gessler 300 heads:
Cast Iron Level 3 with 1.81" intake and 1.45" exhaust valves
.100" .200" .300" .400" .500" .600"
58/48 121/87 166/111 182/121 190/129 196/134
Aluminum Level 4 with 1.77" intake and 1.50" exhaust valves
.100" .200" .300" .400" .500" .600"
58/44 117/88 162/116 173/129 176/135 179/138
Okay, so this is the first time I've actually compared them side by side, rather than just looking at the peak flow numbers. Pretty interesting, huh? Obviously the almost 20 CFM at the peak stands out but to me they're right there and the exhaust side is actually better. It is totally an apples to oranges comparison however. Perhaps an unported comparison would be better. I believe in the archives there is an unported comparison.
But anyway, these are the numbers that Greg got me and I think that they're pretty good. For instance Dave Nelson got (I believe) only 20 CFM more on his cast iron heads used in the Hot Rod 349 stroker motor and he got something like 390 HP. Since I'm only feeding 312 cubic inches in my aluminum head engine, the HP/cubic inch should be comparable, assuming equivalent engine specs (cam, compression, etc). Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking but I guess we'll see.
As for the intake, who's to know? As you're aware, I along with you seem to be the only two people that believe it's even possible to run the aluminum intake on a cast iron headed 300. No matter how you slice it, I feel that the aluminum 4 bbl intake will out perform the cast iron 2 bbl intake regardless of the port sizes - at some point the carb becomes the "choke point." Hell, that was one of my first mods back in the day and it made a tremendous difference; and that's why I've tried to convince everyone that it IS possible (provided you address the exhaust cross overs) and a great idea for performance/economy.
Matt, Those are some GREAT numbers for an Aluminum head. I've never seen any numbers for either head. I would get asked what do they flow? Atomized Gas and Air. But in a do it yourself situation such as I did without changing valves I'd stick with the Hevvy Dooty ones. In your case, 12.5 Comp!? Aluminum all the way. It'll probably help a lot pulling the heat out. Sounds like a neat combo you have. It's a lot more fun making a lion out of a cub rather than starting with a lion and pulling his tail.
Also those cross-sectioned pics of mine; They arent ported. I would just slide the valve in upside down in the head I'm working on and get the measurements from the slice.
Some pictures of what I'm doing with the 300 in my wagon... Grainy spy photosou:
Hmm, please keep us posted. :TU:
I made a form out of steel channel to press the ends of a round tube tapering into a rectangular shape. Did 8 runners, but was not happy with the size (should have used 2" OD tube instead of 2.25"), perhaps they'll work for a future Buick 350 intake.
So, the new runners will be formed out of sheet aluminum with a taper built into them.
I also decided that the 4.5" ID aluminum tube was not going to cut it for the plenum, so that is going to be made out of a sheet aluminum also.