Or........we can make sure we all play by the same rules and try to win your two out of three shootout.
This issue is not what constitutes pure or factory stock. The issue is human nature. It is human nature to always strive to do better than before. We are a country of immigrants for this very reason. Our ancestors yearned for a better life. What keeps things in check are laws, rules, guidelines, etc... Monitoring and enforcement of these controls keeps things from getting out of hand (most of the time). I am having a difficult time grasping what the "problem" actually is. We go to the track, we meet great people, we share food, tools, drinks, parts, stories, etc... And we get to race on a dragstrip all by ourselves. Just who are we trying to satisfy? 1.Is it the media. 2.Is it the participants who find PSMCDR laughable. 3.Is it every loser in a 2 out of 3 match race. 4.Is it combination that doesn't make the top ten. 5. ... That being said... With difficult economic times with a media system that showers us only with negative news, it seems to be difficult to focus on the positive. Lets try. Every year the participant count increases. Every year the specator count increases (weather permitting). Every year friendships are made because of common interests. Every year friends meet at one location from all over the country. Every year ... And one more thing Fcuk the media
The problem with trying to create a true Factory Stock class (that is, something purer than Pure Stock) is, and always will be: WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? If no one makes a duplicate of the factory cam for my W-30, what am I supposed to do? If I change the weights in my distributor or the jets in my carb, am I legal? How about a stiffer preload spring inside my posi? Are the shocks you've installed truly dampened the same way as those originally installed by the factory? Is the torque converter on your car original? How can you tell? How do you know it behaves exactly like the original? The list can go on and on. Dan and Bob chose where they wanted to draw the line, and, frankly, I can't imagine doing it any better than what they did. (Well, OK, I've never understood allowing MSDs or X-pipes). If you don't like where the line is drawn, you are welcome to draw it someplace else and create your own race. But 5 years from now there will be a rash of threads on some message board bemoaning the fact that you drew the line in the wrong place!
Some of our ancestors were running from the law .... which might also explain why Pure Stock has seemingly been overrun by law-breakers. :laugh:
Easy on the x pipes.I just bought a complete system that's going on for next years race. My question is how many cars are thought to be, as blackgold said ,"law breakers" ??I mean is this whole discussion all based on just a few cars that are thought to be cheating?If it is just a few cars let Dan and Bob(or who ever does that) deal with them on a one on one base.Changing the rules for a few cars is crazy.Crazy I tell ya!!This race and the F.A.S.T races are just awesome shows.It would be a sad day to lose any one of these races because of all this bickering.Plain and simple Dan and Bob do a great job.
No, I think I'm saying the same thing as you... because Bob and Dan already seem to be getting mail from the NHRA. In fact, I believe at one point, it was listed as a direct internet link from the Rules page. PS. I just checked the website for PSMCDR. The NHRA spec link is still an active link directly from the Certification Rules page.
Maybe it would be easier if we just eliminated the Top10 Chevy and Mopar entries, and stuck with the current rules/format? That way, you could get past the bruised ego's, and who's number 1 pecking order argument. Oh yeah, and 1 very pesky Firebirdp Enforce the existing rules as written, I agree with many above, we don't need a bunch more stinkin' rules,classes,enforcment,blah-blah-blah. This is supposed to be for fun, a race where you win nothing, so why would we want to complicate it and piss-off the organizers to get them to the point of cancelling the event?????????? I Also agree with Brian, about the pusher pump issue. NO ELECTRIC FUEL PUMPS ON THE CAR....PERIOD....No matter WHO you know, or WHO you think you are, or WHO you BLOW:Smarty: This is a very unique event, and I for one would hate to lose it over a bunch of BS!:af: The 2 outta 3 shootouts were/are a brilliant idea. The tires are(as always) the great equalizer's. Thank You Dan and Bob, don't give up, it's a great event!! This race should be considered an economic stimulus package, I would hate to have to sit and figure out how much money I have spent over the past 8-10 years building cars JUST for this raceou: But it was all worth it, and I would(and will) continue to do it again,and again for THIS race.
See, put the Genie back in the bottle, and Tom will still keep coming! I bet so would everyone else. [This is all just talk, right?]
I Also agree with Brian, about the pusher pump issue. NO ELECTRIC FUEL PUMPS ON THE CAR....PERIOD....No matter WHO you know, or WHO you think you are, or WHO you BLOW ********************************************************** I haven't looked in on this site for awhile but wow! Lots of comments! What if they were an option from the factory? They were for the R series Studebakers. We do not have them on the Tomato or the Plain Brown Wrapper nor, as far as I know, do any of the other Studes have them either but they were an option. They also were an option on the '57 and '58 Golden Hawks although none of those have shown up yet. Also, air shocks were an option but again, none of the Studes have them as far as I know.
Ted, you would have to run that by Dan and Bob. But...I'm pretty sure General Motors never offered an electric fuel pump as a factory installed option, pretty sure Mother Mopar didn't either, so this would include 400 powered Pontiacs and 440+6 powered Mopars __________________
What's broke? I kinda think Lombardi is on to something. You guys are all worked up over what really? One little electric fuel pump,that may or may not have even been on? Worried about .015 stroke? That none of you would even know about if the owner wasn't a honest guy. Lets go back to crinkled 2 inch exhaust? Instead of the Pure Stock Drags I propose we change the name to the "Patty Cake Nationals". I've never seen the lack of competitive nature any where in motorsports before.Its the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag RACE! Race being the key word here.I've never been polite before but there it is. The first year I came to the pure stock drags I brought my 70,000 mile 72 340Cuda.My car was probably one of the most innocent cars there.Factory exhaust complete with heat riser clanking away, NO MODIFICATIONS what so ever.Being a established cheater in FAST with a original car at the pure stock drags what threat am I? Guys are showing me their cam cards,their roller rockers,telling me about their bore and stroke combos,all kinds of sins far greater in my opinion than any our beloved bird has commited.Is that the PURE STOCK you guys are clinging to? What a joke,thats a damn joke. Some of you act like you aren't happy as hell to run your personal bests and your cars get stocker all the time. To me I think Ricks car is great.It is just how I would like to build a car.Maybe I am wrong but I can read a little page of rules.I would love to build a 71 six pack Cuda and go stomp a hole in Rick and Scotts ass.Or maybe a small block Duster to take the small block record off the guy who seeks mine.I'd like to give Donny Brass a spanking too,just for the fun of it. Maybe that line of thinking is too over the top for the picnico No: It's only a little race where at the end of the day nobody is a loser.What does it matter when you are paired up two out of three? Does it matter if 20 pairs are in front of you or 50? Live and let live. Flame on boys
Boy, THAT'S a technique I think I'll skip when it comes to passing thru the tech line..............................uzzled: uzzled:
As one of the "middle of the pack" guys I'm just happy to have a place to run. The only real reason for me to miss this year was due to the health of my family at the time. The only mods to my car are a 284 cam, 2-1/2" exhaust, Flow Master muffs, elec ignition, K&N air filter, mild shift kit and "Cannon tuned" carbs. The 440 is still a virgin bore & stroke running the original New Yorker pistons. If you look at my slips from 2 years ago you would think that I bracket raced it as all times on race day were 13.3. The personal best of 12.95 came in mine shaft air @ E-town.
Yes it is, your question was to use P/S rules or NHRA. I pointed out you should use the ones supplied by the P/S organisers. Now, if the NHRA link causes confusion perhaps it is clarified by the P/S rules in the certification portion reading: "Again, we will be using the NHRA bulletins for various engine numbers (carb., intake, heads, etc), combustion chamber cc's, piston to deck clearance, proper piston configuration, lift at the valve, valve sizes, valve head configurations, valve job, cylinder bore, stroke, head gasket thickness, etc. You are allowed to blueprint your engine to these NHRA specifications only. No NHRA engine building tricks allowed."
An engine part or parts, assembly or machining method contrary to P/S rules as might be or has been used in NHRA. I'd use the example of "limited travel" or shimmed" hydraulic lifters. Some folks think this is a grey area. Well, P/S rules say the valve train has to be stock. So as posted earlier, I'd think a person would have to show proof that these shimmed valve lifters were factory available or a reasonable replacement. They can be checked with a valve cover pull.
Brian, you and I seldom disagree; and I still think we're saying the same thing here. The problem with "enforce the rules as written" is that the interpretation of the rules by the organizers (link included) has permitted tolerances to be based on the minimum spec's found in the NHRA publication. As Peter pointed out, this led to static ratios that exceeded factory advertised values. Bottom line: "Pure Stock" now gets an asterisk beside it. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the rules have been modified over time when people began taking advantage of other loop holes: (eg., tire size can now be one letter wider; H and X pipes were not specifically prohibited; etc.). All these little things, together with an underlying desire to be all-inclusive, led to a relaxing of the enforcement to the point where we now have a bunch of guys running 11's and 12's... certified no less. In the end, to an outside observer, the certification program created more controversy than it solved; not the original plan. For me, I really don't care; this is just an academic exercise (I support what the Right Honourable Gentlemen from Rhode Island said). I'll still come as long as Tom still comes.:grin: But if we're canvassing for opinions, then I offer up that we put the Genie back in the bottle. I believe that most folks (being the genuine good sports that they are) will figure out how to comply.
