P.S.M.C.D.R. Survey Sheet for 2009

So, if a magnet sticks to it, it's stock/ legal? o No:

 

not really sure, I think SFI flywheels are legal... I just know for sure that beer can ones are not


at least I think I know that...

 

So I'm supposed to run a 52 year old CAST IRON flywheel at 6000 rpm. Don't think so. Count me out.

 

Me, too, but add 500+ more RPM in the Ramrod. Mine is steel, a Mondello "Inertia flywheel".:laugh: :laugh: Also a Centerforce Dual friction clutch.

66 has a stock steel one with also a Centerforce dual friction, although I have an original clutch/pressure plate that could go in. RPM's will be about the same as the 350 Ramrod.....

 

I don't think anybody makes a steel flywheel for a y block, have to convert to an automatic to be legal.

 

Welcome Bob and I am not going to piss and moan much.

I think it is unfair though that people complain that one brand gets a break over another. We have personally run Chevy's (3 so far), Pontiac's (3), Mopar's (3), AMC's (4), Olds (1). Not once have I seen any favoritism for any brand. We discuss each build with Dan and Bob extensively before doing them. And the vast majority of the motors are built by Dan with Bob peaking over his shoulder at some point on about everyone the way I understand it. Then we dyno them with them at the session. Really can not be held to a higher standard then that. And they do hold them (even the Pontiac's) to a high standard.

What I have always walked away with is they would speak up long before they would allow even a most modestly compromised build. Bob and Dan take the integrity of this race very seriously. And I for one respect them for it. If their love runs so deep on Pontiac's then why have I never been allowed even one tenth of a mm of wiggle room?

We have dyno'd more motors than I can remotely remember but three things (motors) come to mind. The L88, Boss 302 and RA IV's. Why these? They Made the most hp per cube of any motors we have run on a dyno. Pontiac's flat make the most tq per cube by a mile of any we have dyno'd regaurdless of cubes with 455 HO's easily trumping all but SD's tq. Heck RA III's make an easy 60+ lb-ft on a L78/89 396.

The LS6's 70 and 71, LS5, L71, LT1, L79, L89, 360/390/401 AMC's, 440+6 etc. were not even in the same ZIP code as the three above motors.

Some motors just work better than others as a PS car. I personally love RA IV's as ps cars. They work so well in this venue. If I was able to run headers and sticky tires I would be foreaging in Larry's barn for his LS6 Chevelle. I like steel better than fiberglass (sorry Donny) even if it is slower oft times.

On that subject my last dragged out comments. I personally find it unfair to single out three L88 Vettes and couple cars that are close to the magical 11.50. If these cars meet the rules to an exact standard and the participants have spent a tremendous amount of money to run those expensive combo's of L88 Vette, ZL1, or Hemi. Why send them home? I personally doubt that at Stanton any have much chance of going consistently or far under 11.50. The two that have did it with sea level air, high density air and at notoriously sticky tracks. That does not describe our beloved Stanton's general conditions. The funny thing to me is that Larry's L88 was a dog when Jim showed up with it. It took a lot of tuning effort and tracing of electrical gremlin's to make it run quickly. But no hard parts aside from the exhaust had to be changed.

The other thing is that it made the most hp we have ever seen on a dyno run by a fair margin. It took a bunch to make it work in the car though. The funny thing is the engine builder who dyno'd it and the '71 LS6 complained endlessly while holding a printed copy of the rules how much Jim left on the table and that he was so hamstrung by Jim that the motor in his perspective was at best a mild build and a bad race motor. Simply to much room left and to little power made. Funny thing is that this car is now one of the lightening rods. Not even close to maxed and people complain that a car like that could no longer be a PS car. That notion is simply wrong.

L88's are fast cars (then and now) and just because they can run under an arbitary number does not make them illegal as far as meeting the rules. And needing a roll bar does not either disqualify them as a PS car. The roll bar is a legal item instituted by insurance companies and lawyers. Heck to be honest we are all crazy to be running these cars with just a 40 year old lap belt to help create a nice fulcrum point to power us into that hard skinny wheel with our chests if anything went wrong. Being safe should not disqualify a car. I got in Paul's SD T/A and used its three point belt and an involuntary notion of safety welled in me. L88's simply have the most potential of any combo found so far. That does not make them illegal or cheated. Now if they have illegal parts that is the error that should disqualify them.

I would plead for those who have invested a TON of hard earned money in these cars that they not be summarily dismissed on the notion of what appears to me to be jealously. I chose cars to race that could not find a veiw of their tail lights but that is my choice and problem not theirs.

If a car that is faster than 11.50 must be dismissed I would suggest that those who have already been built be grandfathered in if they meet ALL standards per the rules stated by Dan and Bob. If we do not want cars quicker than 11.50 then the combo's that have that potential should be listed as no longer legal just like ZL1 Vette's, light weight cars... Do not punish long standing competitors and their investments. To me that is what will send people like me away. Roller tips are not a deal breaker for me, though I do prefer them not to be used, but if I go out and find rare and expensive parts to build a neat and legal combo that I have a desire to race and I get dismissed becuase now a new rule change upends my entire car then I will take my ball and go home or to FAST.

If a couple guys/girl need a role bar then let them. Just end any new L88 builds or what have you. Maybe we could all just race 150 '74 Nova SS's and GTO's. They will never see a quick time well at least the Nova's as Bob and Dan will see that the Goat's get an unfair break...

Again most importantly I want to thank Bob and Dan. They are both very special people and do our bidding with care and consideration. No one could do it better!!!

Mark

 

I have been watching this and I understand that some people have an issue with the 11.50 barrier. News flash, Mid Michigan is under the NHRA banner and by those rules, any car under an 11.50 requires a roll bar. Remember how long it took FAST to adopt the bar? When we have to start adding pipe to make it legal, people will really question the legality of the cars. I understand Terry and I remember hearing about the motor teardown after the event. Kudos for showing all!! Those cars are absolute rockets! I have also heard some call it an 11.50 bracket race. How many cars are at this level right now and how many can make it to this level (leagally)?

Believe me, I am not a part of the witch hunt and I do not want anyone to not show up because of the 11.50 barrier. I want this event to continue way past the time that I am Pegleg and Dave H.'s age. But if we have issues adhearing to the rules (and yes, sometimes rules have to get changes) this event will go the way of the DoDo bird!

 

One other option for the 11.50 and quicker cars. Leave the roll bars out and only race to the 1/8th mile.
NHRA fuel cars got their track shortened to 1000 ft. last year and I don't think it has hurt the spectater appreciation for these cars.

 

So, if you won't use a cast flywheel and there are no steel replacements, what have you been doing up to now?

 

It has the only flywheel that I could find on the aftermarket, billet aluminum. Slightly lighter than the iron wheel it came with, 3 or 4 lbs as I remember. But that wasn't the point, my feet were. I saw nothing in the rules against that when I built the car. I'd have asked for a waiver if I had from Bob/Dan. Doesn't matter, if it's illegal, the car won't be run any more.

 

Safety trumps all when racing. I run a SFI approved HAYS billet steel- not cast, flywheel as well as a SFI billet harmonic balancer and a Lakewood scatter shield. I cleared this all with Dan and Bob prior to building the engine. These are not performance enhancing items, but safety items. Anyone who has ever seen a flywheel, clutch or harmonic balancer explode would understand instantly why I do. Glance under my car you will also see that I do not just use a drive shaft safety loop, but I also surround and contain the entire universal joint out of the transmission. I have witnessed these joints explode as well and the driver is right in the line of fire. You miss a shift and zing the RPM's and I want all the protection I can get! Death or dismemberment is the fastest way to shut down this event I can think of. Especially when it can be avoided!

No surprise Dan and Bob are in complete agreement. Thank you gentlemen! :TU:

Thomas

 

When I said aluminum flywheels were not legal, it was an assumption on my part......... not in the rules.


sorry if I came off as more of an authority on the subject than I actually am.

 

uzzled:

 

hey, it happens....

 

Mark: I never claim to be speaking for the majority, but the main objections I've heard regarding the Pontiac stuff are in regards to domed pistons and "home brewed" camshafts...you mention dynoing/building various make/model engines, but how many "JW" cams are available for the non-Poncho stuff? See what I mean?? I will, however, agree with you on the roll bar thing, though...I was admittedly on the fence, but then I watched a car hit the wall at the last *2* events [Stanton & Virginia] I've attended...!

Generally speaking, Chris Jones mentioned earlier "Enough with the whining" for fear of it messing this up for everyone else...I would hate to see this as well, as my *10* 1500+ mile round trips to Stanton indicate I have a certain affinity for this event. But with that said, it usually stands to reason that "where there's smoke there's fire", so maybe some of this "whining" would be better labeled as "concern" for an event that we all love...

BTW: while Mid-Michigan may fly the NHRA banner, those guidelines only apply to NHRA sanctioned events [Nats, regionals, etc]...tech/safety is at the sole discretion of the track [and it's insurance carrier! LOL!!] during non-NHRA events and day to day operations. That's why tech is often more "relaxed" at Test'n'tunes, and while you see some of these "Outlaw" races run at NHRA tracks...

 

I don't think anyone is going to argue with replacing a cast iron flywheel with a steel one for safety reasons. Same is true with a scatter shield (increased curb weight is the only other effect this item is going to have).

As I see it, there are three ways to categorize aftermarket parts:

1. Performance Enhancing
2. Durability
3. Safety

Some parts fit all three categories, while some only fit one or two of them. Unless a specific exemption exists in the P/S rules (e.g., 2.5" exhaust) category 1 aftermarket parts should be avoided. Category 2 and 3 parts should be cleared with the organizers for compliance with the actual P/S rules or special exemption provided the part doesn't fit category 1 also. It should not fall to the organizers to prove something is a performance enhancer -- when in doubt, default to the stock part.

Man, this use to be so easy.

 

Rob I was not singling you or anyone out specifically and I hope you did not take it that way.

I do get a bit worn out on the JW item though. Especially for me personally as the Judge runs a Melling cam and I seem to need to state that over and over and over and over and over and over. It gets tiresome with that car.

As to JW cams they are built to correct factory specs and we are very diligent about meeting the factory specs. There are some Pontiac versions, AMC, Mopar, Ford and Chevy ones.

I personally run original cams when the option is available. AMC's do not have any options and stand by companies like Comp do not make anything remotely close to the three factory versions that would be needed for our racing. We re-created factory ones to the best of our abilities for them.

Same problem with a Boss 302 cam. The after market replacements are much to large in both duration and lift to meet the 1% rules. They certainly would help those huge heads breath but instead I was able to cam dr. my used one and barrow an NOS one. We recreated it right down to the proper centerlines and duration at each .050 lift increment.

Our JW cams have been driven not by a performance item but rather by a need to stay legal when there is no proper alternative. That is why there are so few available. They only get made when a need exists. I personally have found a comfort level with them due to the high quality the company seems to supply. I have also found that with Melling though you have had issues with them in the past.

In the end especially if you are running a maxed combo towards the front of the grid you should run a factory cam when at all possible it would seem.

From talking to Terry and Dave about roll bars in Bruno's and my FAST car it seems that the tracks have been very flexible about the 11.50 rule. Those conversations led me to believe that the tracks start taking notice in the sub 11.20 range.

Mark

 

One says not a performance upgrade......one says pick up a tad.

Both guys are held in high regard........Hmmmmm.

Could it be, the roller tip results are affected by several variables?

I suppose if a guy had to run the stock rockers it would be a moot point.

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's why it took six or so revisions to reproduce a stock cam!

Everything does nothing....everything does nothing..........

 

First off i hope that Frank gets a pass on this even though i dont think it is illegal.That is a cool car,and is refreshing to see something that is different,and also runs so good.I stand by anything i say,and would be happy to back up what i say about roller tips.If you have not tried both of them,then you dont know.I have.I also run the Melling cam,and they are excellant.I do not think that any make gets a preference over any others,but it is harder for some than for others.Variety is good,so if somebody needs a little extra help,then i for one would hope they get it,so they can race thier car.