vin and body tag where is the line in the sand ?

(a) A person who(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.



(c) As used in this section, the term(1) identification number means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) motor vehicle has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) motor vehicle demolisher means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) motor vehicle scrap processor means a person(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.



(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term tampers with includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

 

looking past the "theft and stolen" parts...

(a) A person who—(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;

(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;

(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law:Brow:

(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—(i) the owner or his authorized agent;

 

This is a knowledgeable group, make no mistake about it. Many of us have dug into the laws and discussed previous events in other threads right here on V8Buick. You're not the first to offer up the subject. Type rebody into the search and you'll get a taste.

From the title of your thread, and the statement here, you are considering a rebody. Can you consider just putting the drivetrain of the GS into the Skylark, especially given the circumstances you've mentioned?

What consistent opinion were you hoping to get?

 

I am fairly sure that most here know the difference between a rebody and a repair.


That being said I can give some firsthand information on a rebody. I received a car in trade that was a rebody from several years ago, how far back I do not know for sure. I purchased many dated parts for the car before I found out for sure. Anyway I have a friend that has a good friend that is a judge and I received good info to talk to another friend that is an attorney. Anyway in our state it is illegal to possess a lose VIN tag or even possess the special rivets, to remove or change such items. I also know of one state out west it is illegal to even change the trim tag (felony). You can be prosecuted if you sell a vehicle done so into that state…. Remember when you are charged it is not just a single infraction, it will involve several charges.

From good information that I received I decided to send the car back. I did not have to involve any legal authorities as the person and I had become long distance friends. I do not believe he knew of the rebody even though he did not I was told by my attorney that he would be held fully responsible. Just as I could if I kept the car and it ever became in question. This could happen for many reasons as an accident, if another adjuster, police, ect started looking at the parts. It would become a legal nightmare and very costly legal fees and could even involve prison time, even though I did not do the rebody. Burden falls on me so to worry about any of this was not worth it even though I really wanted the car.

I know of people doing this and everything being fine but all it takes is a little difference to start an investigation and they will go back years if need be, remember it cost law enforcement nothing as it is our tax money that funds them.

Maybe nothing would ever become of moving the VIN but if you should ever sell the car and the next owner or some subsequent owner find out (and they will) you will be in jeopardy. Its called a conspiracy to defraud.
Do it, and never sell it, might not ever have a problem. But someone interested finds out its a re-tag, might just go to any means possible to get the person responsible for them being screwed (that would be their opinion). They will all come back to you and if the car was sold, it could be called fraud. Let’s face it, the only reason to do this is to keep the value of the damaged vehicle.

OH,
Also I have seen a couple of cases that even though the person that owned the car did not do the rebody he ended up with a felony record and just barely stayed out of jail and had a lot of legal fees.

 

This is an easy one... Simply take your parts car and use the GS400 parts on it and you have no issue with trying to repair all the rust or dealing with the whole re-body dilemma... Will it be a real gs400 based on the vin, no but who cares... It is not like this is ever going to be a $50,000 GSX, so who cares if it is a gs400 or not... And if the chassis of your gs400 is in better shape then use that...

Build it for yourself....

 

I'm getting consistent opinions now. I can conclude that a re-body is not the GS400 I have. I'm not going to put myself or my kids, who will own this after i'm long gone in jeopardy. Like I said in the OP. "I want to know for me" I don't want to claim it as something it's not. I bought the 400 because thats what I want. not for bragging rights but because my father had one. It's the car I learned to drive in. He's passed now but the connection through the car is nice to ponder about as I build it. So, I guess I was looking for an easy way out from all this body work. I didn't realize it's a felony. just thought it's a skylark shell. GS was a sub model but I get it. base is not GS. OK.
Forget the re-body. Im just going to cut the skylark up. seems a shame to do that to a perfectly clean california body but. like you all say...law/rules. In the long run I have peace of mind that I did the right thing.

 

Jason,

I think most of those new cars would have been totaled if they needed that much work, therefore they would have a Salvage Title.

_____________

Mr. Sunset:

The controversy seems to be centered around the fact that the VIN and Trim Tags are affixed to the body shell by the factory.

The affixing of the tag seems to be the "line in the sand" so to speak. This makes that anonymous shell a "GS".

3 camps exist in the hobby:

The Hard-liners, mostly comprised of owners of rare cars who don't want their cars' value diminished by having more of them around, mostly agree to this: There are not many of these folks in the GS camp.. More in other makes..

A tag can be removed only for repair/restoration purposes, of both the part the tag is affixed to, and the tag itself. Shell repairs must be minor, not visible, and panel replacements must be at the factory seems only, using only factory NOS sheetmetal.


I understand the argument for this. It insures that if a restored real GS is being sold, it is the authentic body with only minor repairs, and it is in original, as produced, OE condition.. no patches welded all over it..

The second camp, is mostly comprised of body/restoration shop owners/employees- obviously it's in their best interest to be able to repair shells, and not in their interest to have you bring in a rust free one..

This second camp feels that a shell can be sliced, diced, back halved, and have as much repair on it as required, as long as it's done in a manner that is consistent with what would be accepted as "industry standard" work.. but that you must use the original shell, and you cannot, under any circumstances, move a tag to a different shell. If a shell is too far gone, then the GS title/tags should be destroyed and the running gear should be installed in a donor car, and the factory tags should remain on that car. If your doing a GS 455, and find another GS455 for the shell, you should retain the replacement shell's tags, even if your using your drivetrain, which would make it a "non-numbers matching" vehicle.

I also understand this reasoning.. It makes sense for them to not take food off the table, and many shops can perform such high quality work, so that you can't even tell it was done, when finished. This also helps prevent the cover-up of car theft, where just the VIN and Trim tags are swapped.

The 3rd camp believes this:

Parts is parts, and if you have two cars completely disassembled, those cars of the same vintage and body style have many, many identical parts, and which parts you decided to use to put it back together, is entirely up to you, as long as your not attempting to commit any fraud.

This is the "common sense camp" that seeks to promote the ownership and enjoyment of the hobby. It does unfortunately open the door for the cover up of car theft.. stealing a survivor or restored car, and just changing the VIN to one from a junked car of the same vintage and Model, to represent it as a different vehicle.

The reasoning behind this is simple.. the shell is the exactly the same in the same model i.e. Skylark Sport Coupe.. so which one you use is only to facilitate the nicest car you can build, for the lowest cost. Your not attempting to commit any fraud, because there is no value difference in the finished vehicle, regardless of which identical shell you used, therefore no fraud exists. Only if your attempting to sell it as "born with" sheetmetal would there be fraud.

The problem lies in the fact that none of us will live forever.. and sooner or later, just about every restored car is going to change hands, and that second or third owner selling the car, may well represent the car as having "born with" sheetmetal.

------------------------------------------------------------

As far as legalities go, I agree that no LE agency gives a rat's pa toot about this issue. If you run in and scream bloody murder, they will file whatever you want them to, just to shut you up.

The courts are another matter.. you can be sued for just about anything, and with the right jury/judge, and good lawyers against you, you can lose. The simple fact is that you open yourself to liability.

------------------------------------------------------------


What do I think? For many years, I would not touch this topic with a ten foot pole.. because I was in the business of restoring cars.. now that I have set that part of the business aside, I will say that I ascribe to all three camps to some extent. It depends on the vehicle.

Cars with "historic value" should be "as produced" a much as possible. These cars would include GM show cars, or cars that were modified after the fact, and those modifications enhanced their value: i.e. The Kenne-bell 70 GS test car, or the Motion GSX..

Anything that derives considerable value because "this is the actual car, that was raced. or owned by so and so, or sat on the car show floor".. ect ect.

I do not think a re-body would be appropriate for these cars.- Camp number 1

---

For the everyday anonymous GS, with no historic value, I strongly believe that you should make every effort to build the best car possible. And what work will be required, varies with what damage the actual car your working on has.

If your car is sound, and needs a couple panels replaced, then that is what you should do, and you should insure that the work being done is of the highest quality. So camp number 2 there..

---

Cars that are severely rusted out can only be properly saved by replacing all the rusted metal.. and in the case of a body shell, the way these cars are constructed makes it very, very difficult and cost prohibitive to do that. Many areas of the rocker boxes are multiple layers welded together. All of the seams are resistance welded, and by nature that's two pieces overlapping, creating an area that may contain rust, but be impossible to access. So encapsulation of that area is the only way to deal with it, and sometimes that works, other times if fails.. And there is nothing worse than having rust come thru, on a 5 year old, 100K resto..

Replacement of the "unit", with a rust free identical factory produced shell is the best option here.- so camp 3.

But you would never upgrade during this process.. you would never tag a skylark shell with a GS 455 tag, that was not the tag off the GS455 your restoring... you are then "creating" a car that does not exist anymore. There is a difference between replacing the shell on a GSX, with a rust free version of that same shell, vs buying a GSX Vin tag, and creating one.

The difficulty of policing these body shell replacements is the reason that many don't ever want it done, and I respect that opinion. I luckily never did a complete body swap, although we considered it many times. Always only parts were used.

Now I don't have to worry about it, I build hot rods and race cars and engines/transmission... and no one cares about numbers on those. Well, I guess they might on engines/transmissions, but I am not going to stamp numbers on those, that surely is fraud.

It's my opinion that unless you bought the car with a premium price, because you were told it is "born with sheetmetal", one must assume that many, if not most of the parts have been changed, and the body shell is nothing more than an assembly of parts.

Good luck with your project, however you chose to do it.

JW

 

Thanks Jim,

I believe door number two would be the best option for me. This isn't a Numbers matching car but I do want it to be the best it can be and still retain that gs400 smell.
I don't think I can do this in my garage. I would need a professional to do it right.

Now im thinking I should clean up the skylark. sell it and continue my search for
another 400 shell or parts car. I have a great start on the rolling chassis.
IDK. Thought this would be a lot easier than it is.
hahaha how many guys have said that.
I love it. love turning wrenches and restoring.
this is my biggest project to date.
mistakes cost money that's a fact
anyway,

thanks again

 

JW:

"Cars that are severely rusted out can only be properly saved by replacing all the rusted metal.. and in the case of a body shell, the way these cars are constructed makes it very, very difficult and cost prohibitive to do that. Many areas of the rocker boxes are multiple layers welded together. All of the seams are resistance welded, and by nature that's two pieces overlapping, creating an area that may contain rust, but be impossible to access. So encapsulation of that area is the only way to deal with it, and sometimes that works, other times if fails.. And there is nothing worse than having rust come thru, on a 5 year old, 100K resto..

Replacement of the "unit", with a rust free identical factory produced shell is the best option here.- so camp 3.

But you would never upgrade during this process.. you would never tag a skylark shell with a GS 455 tag, that was not the tag off the GS455 your restoring... you are then "creating" a car that does not exist anymore. There is a difference between replacing the shell on a GSX, with a rust free version of that same shell, vs buying a GSX Vin tag, and creating one."

As usual Jim has produced a reply that is concise, to the point, methodical, and just plain makes sense. However, Jim, this is where you lose me in the statement above. Body #1, the GS455 example given, is basically to far gone to restore whether rusted or wrecked or a combination thereof. It is, by all intents and purposes, not worthy of a restoration. It is history. The GS455 just hasn't been "parted-out" and the shell sent to scrap. But, assuming it is physically present, and its current owner has all the paperwork in order, it is now a candidate for "rebody". Body #2, is a Skylark with a decent shell, and the "rebody" donor. It too has the same current owner and paperwork in good order (read not stolen). Your "allowable" suggestion here is that both the Skylark & GS bodies are unbolted and "swapped"? If so, I suppose here is where I at least need some clarification.

Will the GS body tags and Skylarks body tags be removed at this time, and the GS tags subsequently be installed on the Skylark?

 

Brian,

I, like many folks in the hobby, have scrapped more than a few GS cars, and have made race cars out a couple of real STG 1 cars.. one being a 72, with it's distinctive vin.

I have the tags for those.. I use them as wall art.

My point was that those tags, to a car that was long ago taken apart and spread to the wind, should never appear on another car. That would be fraud.

On the other hand, taking the trim and VIN tag off your GS455, and putting it on your Skylark shell... that I personally have no problem with.

While I understand the pitfalls, in my opinion, it is the only sound repair method. And it is a repair, nothing more.

Tags are changed because owners don't want some busy-body at a car show to say "It's not a real GS" anymore, or "why is it the wrong color".

That's usually the reason. I only ever changed one Tag, a trim tag, that was to a GSX. I thought it was cool that the tag had QQ on it, but the car was documented with original pictures, and it was never Yellow, but always white.

I did a complete resto on that car, and I knew for sure it was never Yellow.

The owner was worried about guys giving him crap about the tag at shows, so we made a new Trim tag on it, with the correct code.

No big deal, no fraud.. just fixing a factory mistake.

I understand your totally against it, and that's cool.. I just don't agree that it never can be done, and understand why folks keep the tags, after they change a shell.

I disagree that there is any fraud committed. While I would prefer all the original metal, I would much rather have a perfect, rust free, factory shell on my car, than a heavily repaired one, waiting to rust again.

 

<<Tags are changed because owners don't want some busy-body at a car show to say "It's not a real GS" anymore, or "why is it the wrong color".>>

I do belive that is an incorrect statement. Most people who swap a VIN to a donor Lark or whatever do that for one reason only. To save a ton of money on a restoration. Money drives a lot of folks to bend the rules as their need requires. I have heard many times people say they are saving a "Classic" but in truth they have created a Bastard car. Only for the money ,only for the money. That's a shame too.

 

putting a GS tag on a skylark body IS FRAUD,nothing new here,, CHRYSLER,FORD,GM< antique autos, all the resto shops that have or are doing this is, wrong and they know it ,,,GM BUICK was just late to the Party ,,,as GS values played catch --up,,, with Mopar,Ford, VET-Chebby,muscle cars,,,,,LET THE BUYER BEWARE,,I personally KNOW of a GSX sold as such, buyer paid the ultimate PRICE,,got screwed,,lots of american muscle owners that do not KNOW, whats in their Garage is FAKE,,, also as in WAR and thats what we have when FRAUDULENT RESTO'S,,come to market,,TRUTH IS THE FIRST CASULITY,,sad commentary on the AMERICAN WAY,,I am shure Overseas shops are just as GUILTY,,back to the Buick GS world,,, again not to single out any shop,that does RESTO on ,FORD<GM<MOPAR,,American Muscle,,,THIS IS A GS BOARD AFTERALL,, and the SHOPS,,meaning there is more than ONE,,that FAKE A GS IS A REALITY,,,,CRY,DENY,BITCH,MOAN ,,ALL YOU WANT IT DOES NOT CHANGE FACTS,,,JUST CONFRONT THE SHOP FACE TO FACE IF THEY HAVE EVER DONE SO ,,,,IF THEY GIVE A CLINTONESK, ANWSER,,,WHAT IS IS ,,,OR LET THE SILENCE ON THE SUBJECT,,SPEEK VOLUMES....AS LENIN/STALIN SAID SPEEK A LIE LONG ENOUGH AND IT WILL BE KNOWN AS THE TRUTH.........ALSO ONE LAST OBSERVATION AT THE GS NATS AS THE PRICES WERE RISING,,, SAW A TRANSACTION CASH PAID FOR A CLEAR GS TITLE, WITH VIN &TRIM TAG,,,,,SO AGAIN NOTHING NEW HERE JUST ANOTHER FACT OF FRAUD IN THE RESTO BUSINESS,,,,,BEST WAY TO FIGHT THIS WAR AND WIN ,,,SELL OFF THE OLD MUSCLE FOR NEW,NEW STANG,NEW HELLCAT CHALLY,,NEW VET,,,,,AND SHE COMES WITH A WARRENTY TO BOOT ,,,AGAIN I HAVE SEEN MORE THAN ONE PERSON TAKE THIS ROUTE,,,,NO FRAUD AT THE FACTORYS....AGAIN LET THE BUYER BEWARE,,, NEXT TIME YOU BUY A GS,,, SEND DWAYNE A PLANE TICKET AND SOME CASH AND YOU WILL GET A GOOD FACTUAL REPORT.......

 

Maybe so Korrie..

Out there in the world of shady car peddlers, that is an issue. Changing vin tags on assembled cars.

But in my world of professional auto restoration, "cheap" was an unknown term. In doing the various estimates for customers, it was always more expensive to replace the shell. You had to locate, purchase, transport, and take another car completely apart.

Sure, there are instances, like the OP, that a guy has a good body ready to go.. but that is not really the norm, from my chair here.

I mis-spoke earlier, when I said "cost prohibitive to repair" I should have said " a poor value to repair", or "not repairable".

JW

 

Cut my thred in half????,,ok the buick gs world has a few shops that do not play fair ,,aka fraud,,,no names because you know who you are,,,,more than a few fakes sitting in garages,let the buyer beware ,,,also few years back at gs nats saw cash paid for clear gs title with vin and cowl tags,,,again nothing new here,,, confront the shop you will use,,and if you get a clintonesk answer, what is is,,,then you know or if the shop, deny, deny,, deny, let the owner beware.....call dwayne send him a ticket plus cash and you will get a honest report,,,,,,or as some friends have done sell off the old for new,,,stang,hellcat chally,vet,,,warrenty,,plus no fraud at the factory....................

 

white-x

Although you seem to be having a little trouble with the posting here.. we get your point..

Let's examine this further:

" A replacement body shell is fraud"

how so?

JW

 

jim ARE YOU saying its OK to put GS cowl ,vin tags, title on a skylark and call it, and restore it as a gsx,stageone ???then sell as such???

 

I contacted a friend who is x-california highway patrol. his words are, And I quote.
"NO NO NO, Don't touch that (bleepin) tag.
replace everything around it, but don't remove it".

guess I'll just take what I need and sell off the rest.

The Vin tag is on the driver door post.
How about taking that entire piece of and putting on the good skylark body.

 

You cannot sell a GSX, if you don't have one, and I already stated that it is absolute fraud to take a complete Skylark, transform it into a clone, and tag it, and represent it as a legit car.. of course.

Your not repairing a vehicle, your creating one.


I'm saying that there is no difference, in my mind, between a body shell and a fender. Parts is parts..

Save for the fact the fender does not have an identifying "tag" on it.

If they did, could we not change fenders?

Oh wait... iN fact, GSX fenders do have identifying marks on them.. stripes..

So it is fraud it take a non-striped Skylark/parts bin fender, and stripe it, and then not disclose that it is not a GSX fender?



JW