vin and body tag where is the line in the sand ?

Discussion in 'Color is everything!' started by Mr. Sunset, Dec 31, 2014.

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  1. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    Brian,
    do you just make stuff up as you go along? If I wanted to deceive anyone, I wouldn't be asking about it on a pubic forum.
    I hope your not the type to insult someone with accusations of intent to commit fraud when you have already been
    informed of state law.
    you have insulted me a number of times in this thread. why?
    Are you so shallow, you feel the need to belittle someones integrity to feel better
    about yourself?
    Or, Are you always right and anyone that may challenge your opinion is a fool.
    My view is it's all of the above based on all comments made by you on this thread.
    there's is an old saying Brian and it fits right in line here.
    "Just because your popular, doesn't mean everybody likes you".
    think about that next time you walk into a crowd of your peers.

    I am expecting a pubic apology for the rude comments you've made about me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
  2. dl7265

    dl7265 No car then Mopar

    Yip disappointing .

    Fyi folks Secret Vins are for Auto Theft Detectives and should not be disclosed to the general public.. Specially on an Internet forum for obvious reasons. Same as Duane won't disclose powertrain codes ...

    DL
     
  3. wovenweb

    wovenweb Platinum Level Contributor

    Hidden VINS are well known on the F-bodies, that Pandora's box was opened many years ago. However, as was noted in this thread there are many other ways to get to the truth.

    FWIW, my Ram Air II "clone" is quite obvious to anyone with knowledge of them...all you need to do is look at the date code on the body tag(03C).
     
  4. SteeveeDee

    SteeveeDee Orange Acres

    They really aren't secret; there have been thousands of guys and gals on assembly lines applying them in the past decades. I worked for GM back in the '70s at a couple of dealers and the assembly division in Van Nuys, CA (long since razed and turned into a mall). Anyone who wanted to look could observe the stamping. Nobody was sworn to secrecy.

    Joe, I'm not sure if the VIN will be there, '67 Buicks are outside my experience range.
     
  5. philip roitman

    philip roitman Well-Known Member

    There were a few articles on this subject in a few collector magazines lately about this issue and the lawsuits starting to happen and being won. High end cars or even a measly Buick GSX/GS should not be rebodied. There are now lawyers out there ready to fight for a customer that was decieved and the consequences can be disastrous for the seller and restorer. The MCACN show rules also plainly state no rebodied re-tagged cars allowed to be judged. Only the real deal. I am pretty sure most Concours/shows expect the same.
    Buyer Beware.
     
  6. buick64203

    buick64203 Just plum crazy Staff Member

    I never noticed a VIN stamp on my 70 when I removed the heater box. Are they stamped on non AC cars? When we took off the AC box on my friends 70 Chevelle, the VIN stamp was there plain as day.
     
  7. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    My GS frame is clean & powder coated. the stamped numbers on the frame MATCH EXACTLY the last 8 digits of the vin Tag and my pink slip.
    This must be the alternate vin.
    you can find every other secret vin online. and they are not so secret anymore.

    There are members that INSIST there are vin #s on the shell.
    yet NOBODY can produce a location.
    this has to be the best kept secret since JFK.
    Prove me wrong. I will check my shell and post a new thread titled "I was wrong"
    even further. I will call CHP again. and ask them too.
    Honestly, I would like to know what they would do about that myself.
    The OP "how much is to much"? doesn't the law supersede personal opinion?
     
  8. buick64203

    buick64203 Just plum crazy Staff Member

    So just so I can wrap my head around this...

    No one has a problem with replacing every piece of the body with Taiwan reproductions except for the cowl where the VIN tag is attached? And you can swap the entire cowl if the rest of the original body remains?
     
  9. SteeveeDee

    SteeveeDee Orange Acres

    Perhaps I am wrong on that. It is, after all, a 40+ year old memory. What a can of worms! I wish you luck on the resolution.
     
  10. buick64203

    buick64203 Just plum crazy Staff Member

    Told you it was a hot button issue!
     
  11. Buickone

    Buickone Founders Club Member

    Hey Jason,
    Consider this.......the frame VIN is stamped. You can't remove it. The shell VIN tag is riveted on. Does that mean the frame is the "car"?
     
  12. buick64203

    buick64203 Just plum crazy Staff Member

    Depends on what someone considers "the car". To some, the cowl is "the car". The others, its the driveline and frame.

    To put another twist on it, what if you had just the frame and cowl section from a real GSX. Can you build a GSX from that and call it "all original" and not a re-body?

    The Cobra guy have this issue. A 3000 series Cobra get wrecked and two people re-build the car using two VIN stamped parts. Now there are 2 Cobras with the same VIN. Who's got the real one? If you look in the Cobra registry, you'll see more than a few that are registered as "in dispute"
     
  13. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    That Is exactly what the officer said. the frame is the car.

    steeveedee...my new local friend..you were right on the vin behind the heaterbox but not
    on the buick skylark. I found this on the camaro. uni-body.

    buick 64203...Smoke'n' hot button. but so glad I asked. I feel I'm getting a free hi speed education in vin #s.
     
  14. Buickone

    Buickone Founders Club Member

    Hmmm. That's a good thing to consider too, that scenario could happen with a Buick too. BUT- the VIN tag is the only place the complete VIN is at. So, I guess it'd be the shell. But it's riveted on. So it can be replaced.......:laugh:
     
  15. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Gold Level Monkey

  16. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    I don't believe the law can have just one base rule do to the variety of makes x models x sub models. that's impossible.
    the office I spoke with said there is a lot of training they are required to take. if it was as simple as saying NOPE!.
    hell, I could do that.
     
  17. buick64203

    buick64203 Just plum crazy Staff Member

    Right from the article-

    There are no hard and fast guidelines for determining how much of an original car must be present or which pieces are considered vital components. "The truth is, there's a lot of gray area with regard to the legal threshold for what constitutes an original car," said Wisner. "It essentially comes down to the discretion of the enforcement agency."



    So in the case of Joe, CHP has decided that the frame is the car and its up to their discretion.
     
  18. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

  19. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Gold Level Monkey

    Apology NOT GONNA happen dude. Sorry :laugh:
     
  20. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Gold Level Monkey

    I read it. Yep. It also says this:

    This rusted-but-genuine '69 GTO will require a substantial cash outlay to restore. Using a rust-free LeMans body could cut resto costs by 60 percent or more, but changing the VIN on the LeMans body to that of the GTO is not legal.

    One point that remains clear is that swapping VIN tags around is a Federal crime.

    Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/paint-body/hppp-0701-pontiac-bodywork-rust-repair/#ixzz3NuZpdn1O
    Follow us: @HotRodMagazine on Twitter | HotRodMag on Facebook
     
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