vin and body tag where is the line in the sand ?

I know other states have different laws so I cannot comment on them but I know in MI if you swap a vin from a mangled 70 GSX to a 71 skylark it is illegal.
This was direct from a judge and an attorney..... Also even though I had nothing to do with the Vin swap I could also be held responsible and charged..... Another problem is it also crossed state lines, in the whole mess it could have resulted in a bucket full of charges.......
I do know in one state it is illegal to even change the trim tag..

See post 25

To answer the rebody question in short; is it done yes : is it legal in most stated NO, Hope it never ends up in a state that it is illegal in because it will come back to you if found...

 

Perhaps the correct word is deception, until the person sells said vehicle, then the term will become fraud unless there is some sort of full disclosure that you are buying a vehicle that has a tampered V.I.N.? I really struggle with the difference between the ones on display on the wall and one plucked 15 minutes ago. I must have some sort of disorder.

In the case of the '67 described, it just makes sense to not cut up the Skylark and install the GS stuff creating a clone. Why can't the car be enjoyed like that??? 3/4's of the people at the shows think it will be a Chevelle or an Oldsmobile anyway. We've had whole threads on that topic. Now I'm the one with an hurtin' head. ARRRRRRRRRG

Thanks for respecting my opinion Jim and sharing with us.

 

Found the info on the Trim tag: Oklahoma



Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 47. Motor Vehicles
Chapter 4 - Antitheft Laws
Highway Safety Code
Section 4-107 A - Trim Tag Plates - Intentionally Destroying, Removing, Altering, Covering - Counterfeits
Cite as: O.S. , __ __




A. It shall be unlawful for any person to:

1. Knowingly and intentionally destroy, remove, cover, alter or deface, or cause to be destroyed, covered, removed, altered or defaced the trim tag plate of a motor vehicle manufactured from 1953 to 1977;

2. Knowingly affix a counterfeit trim tag plate to a motor vehicle;

3. Manufacture, offer for sale, sell, introduce, import or deliver for sale or use in this state a counterfeit trim tag plate; or

4. Offer for sale, sell, introduce, import or deliver for sale or use in this state a trim tag plate that was affixed to a motor vehicle at the time of manufacture but has since been removed or become dislodged.

B. Paragraph 1 of subsection A of this section shall not apply to:

1. Any person who engages in repair of a motor vehicle, provided that removal of the vehicle's trim tag plate is reasonably necessary for repair of a part of the vehicle to which the trim tag plate is affixed, and provided that such trim tag plate is not intentionally destroyed, altered or defaced; or

2. Removal of a trim tag from a motor vehicle which is being junked or otherwise destroyed, if the removal is being done for historical documentation purposes by a person actively involved in judging events or for historical documentation of classic motor vehicles and reasonable precaution is taken to ensure that the tag is not sold or affixed to another motor vehicle.

C. Any person convicted of violating the provisions of this act shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. Any person convicted of violating the provisions of this act a second or subsequent time shall be guilty of a felony.

D. In addition to any other civil remedy available, a person defrauded as a result of a violation of this act may bring a civil action against any person who knowingly violated this act regardless of whether that person has been convicted of a violation of this act. A person defrauded as a result of a violation of this act may recover treble their actual compensatory damages. In any action brought pursuant to this subsection, the court may award reasonable costs, including costs of expert witnesses, and attorney fees to the prevailing party.

E. As used in this section:

1. "Trim tag plate" means a plate or tag affixed to a motor vehicle by the manufacturer which displays numbers, symbols, or codes that identify characteristics of the vehicle including, but not limited to, date of manufacture, body style, paint color, engine option, transmission option, trim option, general option, interior option, and interior color;

2. "Counterfeit trim tag plate" means:

a. any trim tag plate manufactured by a person or entity other than the original manufacturer of a motor vehicle upon which the trim tag plate is designed to be affixed, unless the trim tag has been permanently stamped, in the same manner as other information on the trim tag, with the words "REPLACEMENT TAG" in letters measuring at least one-eighth (1/8) of an inch in height, or

b. any trim tag plate which has been altered from its original manufactured condition so as to change any of its numbers, symbols, or codes; and

3. "Motor vehicle" means

 

ALLOW ME TO JUMP IN HERE...

I called California highway patrol. I can not remove vin tags. however.
In california the frame is what determines the car. The body/shell is considered a part just like a fender.
I can put the base lark body on the GS frame, and the GS body on the lark frame with pics of all four parts and numbers.
purchase the rosette rivets from a restoration shop. (officer said they sell them).
bring the four assembled parts (2 bodies 2 frames) and the rivets down to the CHP inspection location and they will swap the two vin plates for me.
everything documented with DMV and Legal.

AND...I made a new friend.

moving forward...

ALSO, Jim was right as far as california law sees it.

 

I see..

Read it carefully.. no where does it say that you cannot take that tag off during repair, and replace it. In fact it expressly allows it.

It does say.. you cannot affix it to another motor vehicle.

So what's a motor vehicle?

_________


http://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/2006/os47.html


______________________________________________


You cannot take a trim tag (or vin tag) off a motor vehicle, and install it on another motor vehicle.- True in all 50 states I imagine.. This is expressly to prevent car theft.

But a body shell is not a motor vehicle.. now is it?

It does state, that you cannot affix a counterfeit trim tag to any motor vehicle. - so the "Trim Tags" guys are out of business in OK..

JW

 

I've got a 318" Challenger, and I swap in the Hemi K frame out of a rotted out Hemi Challenger, I can go down to the CHiPs and they'll swap the 318 for the 426 VIN tags for me? OOOOOOOOOOkay

 

Let's get away from the Legal argument for a second, because frankly, I think most of of us aren't qualified to interpret the laws as written.

Is there some reason that some of you feel that it would somehow be dishonest to build a car with another body shell.

If so, why?

We do agree that all 70 Buick A body HT shells are identical... right? (AC and non AC being different of course)

Let me put a scenario out there..


You have lots of money, and lots of time on your hands... You like old cars.

You purchase and disassemble for restoration, a GSX and a GS Stage 1... both 70 cars in rust free condition. Both need cosmetic restoration.

You remove the tags for this repair, as allowed by law.

You inherited most your money, so your not the brightest, and you can't remember which shell is which.. and you can't tell, they are now stripped totally, devoid of any identifying marks. The mythical "hidden vins" are not seen, after a frantic search for them.

Now what? Should you care? Should you title both cars as "rebuilt" because you can't be sure which shell is which.

If you just put both back together, and sell them (Because your New Girlfriend with the fake ta-ta's wants a Vette instead) are you commiting some type of fraud, misrepresentation?

Or just in need of remedial organizational classes.. (and a new GF) :laugh:

_____

Seriously, help me understand your point of view.. I respect it, but wish to understand the passion of many folks views on this issue.

I am going to sit back now, and just listen.. I don't want to be seen as argumentative, for the sake of "being right".. .this is not about that. For years, I watched these discussions, but never understood the real passion behind them.


JW

 

The post #6 the member stated he plans to Not sell the car he re bodies and IF he did he would disclose to a prospective buyer .

The PROBLEM arises as this car was sold at auction.. AND the new owner ( shady car dealer that has in the past sold re bodied cars ) advertises it as a STAGE 1 . Much to the chagrin of the restorer.

So even if the owner or restore does so in good faith.. It does not mean down the line specially changing hands several times over the years, someone will not be duped. THAT is why im against all these "clones" replicas "or whatever the current trendy name is for a FAKE . I'd like a Ferarri but can't afford one . Dosen't mean I have the right to make one out of a vw.



DL

 

I don't get it. The original post was about how far to go before a car is no longer considered what it was when it left the factory, not about cloning cars. There are tons of Skylarks that have been made to look like GSX or GS cars. They have have a VIN for a Skylark but have been painted and had parts added to them so that they look like something else. That is a different kettle of fish.

The question is how many and which part should be replaced when restoring a car. There is no such thing as a GSX fender. So it's ok to use a fender that might have left the factory on a skylark when restoring a GSX. Why is the back half of the body any different than the the fender in the above example? Other than the fact that it has the VIN tag riveted to it, it's the same as a Skylark body. When it was built in the weld shop in the factory, they didn't know if it would end up on a GSX or a garden variety Skylark until the cowl tag was attached. Isn't having a clean body that was welded together at the factory "better" than having one that was patched and welded together by some restoration shop a better way to preserve originality?

 

Jim

In one of these threads quite a few years ago (can't find it), you chimed in and showed a "back-half" that was accomplished in your shop. I thought the work being done there was quite impressive. Again, IMHO, there is nothing wrong with doing that. I asked why that car was not "rebodied". You gave more than one reason, but somewhere in that reply you mentioned something about being the right thing to do in your head. I took that to mean there was a little voice (conscience) telling you it was better to do a back half than a "rebody". For me, it is no little voice but a very loud one.

While any given car is the sum of its parts, something has to separate that particular car from all the other cars that have similar parts. That recognized something in the United States of America, is a V.I.N. and its associated title. So, for me anyway, that part of the GS is not to be tampered with if at all possible and never moved to another car. While that belief maybe strongly tied to the law, it is not the same thing. What makes a car? For me, the body.

Another member of our beloved V8Buick said he had the same feelings, only he felt the engine was that one thing. I'm not saying he is wrong, but I worked for many years as an aircraft mechanic. The powerplants really have no ties to the airframe. Musclecar wise, matching number engines are fine, but to me the engine really isn't different than an alternator. Much like you guys are trying to say a fender isn't different than a shell. The shell, or body, though, is the color that car is. Its "born with" personality. Not to mention the pure mass of a body. Why didn't Buick attach the trim tag to the left front fender? Why is it back on the shell closer to the VIN? And while the body is a welded sum of parts, as you already stated in this thread, they are assembled in a welded fashion that is rather permanent and not easily taken apart and reassembled.

I was at a viewing this morning. The body of the man was in the casket for all to see. The body still represented the man, even though his spirit had moved on.

Jason,

How is a 318 body different than a 426? Why doesn't the hemi K frame count as a frame? Key word FRAME. Why is the officer at CHiPs going to say, "Look, I know I just V.I.N. swapped a 350 Skylark with a GS455 this morning with my donut, but that's where I draw the line! I'm not touching this Challenger!"

I've had my head handed to me over this issue before. I'm sticking my neck out again because I thought I had noticed more people on V8Buick starting to frown on V.I.N. swap.

 

this started out as a question of what Can be done and it turn into a court room over what is legal and whats not. Now that has been answered by the CHP who has both vin #s and green lighted the re-body. legal. documented and that is that. regardless of anybodies personal feelings. It is legal. A clone/replica would be a documented skylark with GS trim. does a skylark have a gs frame? No. same as a ferrari does not have a VW frame. CHP wants to verify the frame to insure it started as a 400 frame. anyone can call CHP to verify this information. They are not stupid. they are trained for this. no one is going to pull a fast one over on them. If CHP does have an issue with this. why would anyone else. remember, It is NOT Illegal. if there was Fraud CHP would not allow it.

 

is this considered a rebody, or a high performance package

 

The point was in Both cases that while the cloner may not have intent to defraud anyone, someone down the line will.
Say you're a middle aged business man that drove 15 year old paid off Toyota corollas . You've reached a point all your retirement is maxed out and you decide to be "cool" for once and buy yourself a Musclecar. You hop on eBay and see a High end Muscle car dealer with beautiful "glamor shots " of a Burgundy Mist Stage 1. You check hagerty valuation tool and see about 50K is in line with pricing. You purchase said car. 5 years later you decide to bring it to BG. Jason say's hey nice car man I remember when it was a silver gs455. Now what ?

btw, what you're describing CHP doing it not legal in many other states if any.

DL

 

You would first have to own the original stage 1. and yes according to CHP if you have the frame and the vin plate still attached to the original body. you can rebody the car with the exact same body type and it is still the same stage 1 you started with. I think It makes perfect sense. Of course because I need to rebody my 67 but as stated above. all the bodies are the same until a ID tag it attached. I think they would have stamped it into the body like a part number if they were different.
As for CHP. well...Welcome to Kalifornia