vin and body tag where is the line in the sand ?

Discussion in 'Color is everything!' started by Mr. Sunset, Dec 31, 2014.

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  1. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    No, that was not addressed


    JW
     
  2. buick64203

    buick64203 Just plum crazy Staff Member

    Mike garrison recently did a restoration on a silver 70 GS that had a tree fall on it. He sectioned the rear of the body. The pictures are on the site. He sectioned it so perfectly, I think anyone would be hard pressed to find evidence that it was done. The car came out gorgeous. Now fast forward 10 years from now. The car (God forbid) get creamed in the cowl. Because the car is worth so much, it is worth the expense to repair. A new cowl needs to be installed to make the car right. Now what? The car has essentially been rebodied at this point. Does it get the GS VIN transferred to the new cowl as part of the repair? Or does the Skylark VIN remain on from the donor? Remember, its a repair...
     
  3. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Gold Level Monkey


    Jason,

    Let's take it a step further. Let's say your a blubbering idiot like the ones we've talked about so many times that show up at car shows. You send out a '70 GSX and a '70 Chevelle and when they come back from blast you don't know which one is which. Do you paint both of them Saturn Yellow just to be safe?

    :laugh:
     
  4. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    Agreed. the ID tags must be removed by CHP. California looks at the shell just as they would a fender. it is a part. nothing more. this is on a "framed car" my original paperwork stays intact as is with no alterations. to do this you must have the original car, what ever's left of the shell with attached ID tag and frame. Im not going down with a pink slip and id tag and saying attach this to my skylark and make it a GS.
    Look, I was just as shocked as all of you were to find out this is possible.
    I will call a different location and get a third opinion from CHP.
    but one thing is certain, that skylark shell is going on the skylark GS frame.
    whole or in pieces. preferably whole.
     
  5. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    I guess from what im reading here again and again is you find the mythical hidden vin number stamped all over the shell ?
     
  6. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Gold Level Monkey


    Good morning Jim,

    I think this is the most I've ever seen you reply on one thread. You're never that rash that Jason is :laugh::laugh:.

    Just kidding, everyone loves Jason...:grin: wait till Jennifer sees the ta ta comment...somebody's going to be sleeping in the Riviera.

    All kidding aside, if it is agreed the shell is at least recognizable as a 1970-1972 Skylark A body sedan, coupe, or convertible, that is a far more narrow vision than a 1970 455". When my untrained eye looks at a 455", I can't tell whether it was out of a GS455, Riviera, Wildcat, or Electra. Until I get out my microscope and look for something on the block deck. Even then, I don't think I've ever seen so much inconsistency in my life.

    If the drivetrain is the sacred cow, why are we having this discussion at all? That drivetrain can be bolted in the Skylark and worshiped and driven tomorrow.
     
  7. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    Please inform me of where exactly this will be stamped on the shell.

    Also, Jim stated running gear, I stated frame. where in this thread did you get drive train?
     
  8. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Try to find, or ask for, the WRITTEN procedure.... just to be certain you aren't getting one (or two) persons 'interpretation' of the rules.

    If/when CHP does do the tag swap, will they use the correct rivets?
    If not, you could later replace the wrong rivets with the correct ones.... do it one rivet at a time, so technically you aren't removing the tag!:)

    This is an interesting discussion, I can see both sides here.
    The underlying question is, where does the 'soul' of the original car reside.... in the body shell?, in the frame/chassis?
     
  9. SteeveeDee

    SteeveeDee Orange Acres

    The VIN is stamped in several places. For instance, it is stamped on the firewall, but hidden by the heater box. The two hypothetical cars switched when returned from blasting would be easily identified.
     
  10. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    Thats a great suggestion I will see if that is something available. I would love to post it here. I need to purchase the original style rosette rivets and bring them with me at the time of removal. the rivet are supposedly readily available.
     
  11. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    Thank you Steve. I will forward that information to CHP and pose the question to them. I have my GS body
    /firewall viewable without the heater box installed. is this stamp inside or outside the shell ?
     
  12. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    I haven't seen any vin numbers stamped on any of my 66 bodies. Just checked the firewall on my silver 66 and there's nothing there. Wonder when they started doing that?
    I have seen stampings such as date codes or model number, when the model number is the base model Special, not GS-model number.
    Vin is stamped into the frame on '66, and sometimes on the transmission.
     
  13. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    I couldn't find it on the firewall of my 67. I know the camaro has one under the heater box on the fire wall.
     
  14. Brad Conley

    Brad Conley Super Moderator Staff Member

    A knowledgeable person will know that there are date codes too. Lots of them. Everywhere. Think every piece and you'll be close.
     
  15. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    Brian,

    I thing that of all the "evils" of the hobby, the whole "re-body" issues gets painted with the same brush as used to tar and feather those who would seek to defraud a potential customer, by mi-representing a SS camaro as a ZL-1.

    One is worth thousands, the other hundreds of thousands. Those guys, understandably, hate anyone who seeks to defraud them.

    I am right there with them.. string 'em up I say, I will hold the other end of the rope..

    And with F bodies, Mopars and X bodies, the "body tub" is actually the frame.

    An A body tub is just a part. No more important in my mind than a fender or door. A "Body" is a combination of hundreds of individual parts, of which the 'tub' is just a combination of about 20 of them, welded together.

    Once again, an opinion.. that I happen to share with quite a few folks, who don't say anything, for fear of being at the business end of a stick..

    I beleive the core of this issue is "intent".

    Do you intend to deceive someone, to create a GS from a Skylark and a VIN/Trim tag combo.

    Or is your intent to simply repair your existing vehicle. Represent it for exactly what it is.

    In my mind, this is possible after a body tub swap, because the two parts are identical.

    So I think it's worth a discussion. Discussion and debate, done civilly, is a good thing for boards like these.

    As to the "leave the tag issue"..

    Tags are identification pieces, meant to denote both a model, options, and individual assembled motor vehicles, and the discussion of what makes up a "motor vehicle" is really where the Lawyers come in here. We will leave that to them, save to say that in my understanding, a "motor vehicle" is a combination of hundreds of parts.

    You install the old tag, on the replacement part, for exactly the same reason you stick a "GS455" air cleaner decal on the mint lid you scored off an Electra at the yard.. to restore the part back to it's original appearance.

    Or maybe closer to home for you... why would you drill a Fender that spent 30 years on the front of a 4 door Skylark, with "GS" and "Stage 1" emblems?

    Can't you enjoy the Stage 1 without the emblems?

    Of course you can, but your restoring it back to what it was, exactly, because that fender is exactly the same in fit, form and function as the original piece on the car.

    In the case of the tags, in this instance, your identifying a combination of old, new, and replacement parts, identical in fit, form, and function, as the unit that left the factory nearly 50 years ago.

    My question is.. "Where's the fraud"?

    The simple fact that your not altering the "hidden VIN", or much easier to spot, the sheet metal date codes, lends credence to the idea that your not attempt to fool anyone into believing that this body is nothing more than a 1970 A body tub.

    Anyone that alters numbers, date codes, stamped vins ect is attempting a fraud.

    As before, I will hold the rope..

    JW
     
  16. buick64203

    buick64203 Just plum crazy Staff Member

    I remember Duane looking at the front sheet metal of my 70 Stage 1 and calling it "alphabet soup"! :laugh:
     
  17. Mr. Sunset

    Mr. Sunset Platinum Level Contributor

    Off topic, I keep being referred to as "The member" but my Name Is Joe. I should put that in my signature.
    I'm going to be around here for awhile or as long as i'm welcome.
    so..thought you should as least know my name.

    and..there's the signature upgrade
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
  18. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Gold Level Monkey


    Joe,

    Very nice to share your name? God, I hate handles and the lack of full names on here. Anyway, post 80, Jim "The running gear is what really makes a GS" running gear = drivetrain. Now I'm bored. The thread and discussion is pointless since you've already said your going to put the Skylark body on the GS. I suppose you want the hidden (mythical as you say) locations so you can grind them off? The title of your thread said what you've wanted to do all along, and now you've gotten the "greenlight" from everyone you think you need to move forward. What more is there to discuss? Good luck.
     
  19. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    "Agreeing to Disagree"

    Always a tricky thing.. sorry Brian, I meant no offense.

    Good luck Joe.

    JW
     
  20. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Gold Level Monkey

    Unoffended but once again disappointed. Time for some Toyota maintenance. Good day gentleman.
     
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