A modest proposal for tech inspection...

Biz sucks around here and its been tough to keep spirits up but its comforting to know that I can count on you to make me bust out into a great big belly laugh first thing in the morning.

 

I am a bit affraid to add my two cents but here it goes...

It is simple really, bring PS cars to a PS race and do not sift around for the "spirit of the rules." If you want to progress beyond the reasonable PS rules that are laid out go to the FAST class. Simple really.

The biggest fear I have and I am not being an ambassador here is that Dan and Bob are running out of fun quickly with all this in fighting and bickering. With that happening we are going to lose this race. They are not making any money to do this for US! I am sure they actually lost money this time. Let's not ruin a good thing by killing each other.

The difference today form just a few years back is that guys like Tim and I which were satisfied to be a few tenths off the quickest cars (mostly becuase of our trans choice) are no longer within a ZIP code of the front. It can seem tough to imagine at times. The cars that COPO, Jim S., Bob K, Paul P. and Jimmy brought kind of settled into a comfort zone. No one was even taking advantage of the extent of the rules. Now a couple very competitive guys came in or older racers built new more competitive packages. It has upset the pecking order and added a new level to the game. They may or may not be taking advantage of the rules and the good will of the race but they have made everyone up their own game or get left behind. This has made the progress of speed really increase and the guys mentioned above responded with upgrades of their own. To some extent it really makes me wonder and makes me look at how much is left in my cars but in the end it is fun for me and most competitors and not really about being one of the few fastest. Plus if myself or others are not willing to keep investing in upgrading our cars we just need to accept our trip up the ladder. Heck I do not own the right combo's to be one of the fastest anyhow. No bass boat's in my garage and too many four speeds to run with the truly fast cars.

Not really sure if I am right or wrong there just a gut feeling of how it all happened or is happening.

Please take it easy on Dan and Bob. They do a fantastic job and provide the best venue possible. I would hate to lose this race as it is a true passion for myself and many I know.

Mark

 

I don't think that discussions like this will ever sour Bob and Dan. They will only do the amount of tech that is practical and fun for themselves and the participants.

What WILL ruin the event is if too many participants try to push the rules too far (ie, cheat). THAT is what would force Bob and Dan into increasing the amount of tech in order to maintain the integrity of the event -- something which I know is important to them. What it boils down to is that ALL participants are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the event. If you want to build a F.A.S.T. car, then please go take your car to a F.A.S.T. event.

As for Rick's Blue Bird, it does seem on the edge of credibility that a Pure-Stock legal engine can produce 1.13 HP per cubic inch. But I remain open-minded. I'd love to see this car go through Certified tech. (That's not a challenge; I would seriously love to see the car pass.)

Technically, the crank work makes it a stroker (illegal); but since the resulting displacement is equal to what's allowed by a .070 overbore, I don't have a problem with it. I do wonder if the 12.05:1 compression ratio could've been achieved with stock dimension pistons without increasing the stroke like this.

What about the fancy valve job; is that legal? I don't see the PSMCDR rules addressing this, though the statement "No Modifications" as applied to heads seems pretty clear.

I know nothing about Pontiac cams. Is that Crane blueprint 041 supposed to be identical to the original? What about the pistons; are they compliant, not lightweight?

All in all, a way cool car. :TU:

 

Another example of using the existing rules. As stated in the flyer we recieve:

"Valve Train: The complete valve train must be factory stock for the year, make, and horsepower claimed."

Now......I'd think a person would have to supply proof these shimmed or limited travel lifters were factory stock or a reasonable replacement in function.

Otherwise.......No Certification For You! :laugh:

 

Time for more worthless info from some NHRA groupie...

Actually, a '68 "Pontiac RA2 Firebird" would not have been in "B" in '69...changes in the NHRA weight breaks woulda pushed it down to "C" for the '69 NHRA season...then to "D" for '70, and it wouldn't be back to "B" until '73 when the NHRA set the breaks to where they are today...but, some time in the last few years they changed the hp/wt factors, so the RAII actually runs in "D" today, I believe...was originally 8.69, now 9.85.

 

Holy crap ou:

Mark I am with you on this. I knew some day we'd be pals and play swords!!:laugh: As long as I get to be the Green light saber.!!

I hate the SPIRIT of the RULES- I like The rules the way they are(Or were). They spell out common sense, It's all been posted before.
NO lightwieght stuff
Must be original valve train.
Drivetrain -
Blaha blah blah

I just don't want to sell my soul to go F.A.S.T.er. I like the fact I have the GM cam ,I LIkE advertised compression , when I certified years ago-Spetzman about had a coranary when he saw how close mine REALLY was .
I ain't a saint but I'm not a sinner.
I was proud to say I ran Pure Stock- Now it's become a joke. No one can even keep a straight face when they say it. ( There's original stuff inside) There's no difference between Super Stock now Except we run $hitty tires and no gawdy decals.oh yah and the cage.(Coming soon)
Bob K. and Pete were super stars for ever-with a car that was NHRA maxed out over the years of doin this.That's how the certified part started. Don't you find it strange that all of a sudden his 6pack car was considered Middle of the pack!

Rick a offset ground crank is a STROKER!!!!!!! Increase in stroke
Besides don't all worked up -this has been goin on longer than you!

 

Brian (blackgold) they are tired of the fighting I was told so directly this morning. We need to get back to the basics PS is PS and FAST is FAST. Both are fun but should definitly be different.

Kilgores are not the only trans to sin with on a GM...

Short travel lifters were standard on RA II and RA IV Pontiacs from the factory.

I do think these comments do serve a purpose though myself. A little self policing and peer pressure can not hurt. At least from my point of veiw.

Tim if you have green can I have a nice blue light saber?

Mark

 

That may be.....but the "limited travel" lifters described would need to be comparable.

 

Agreed Brian.

Mark

 

I can't really see that the stroke increase would be a legal issue.It just means it's a few thou you don't have to chop off the block when you are looking for the blueprint spec.

Seems like it should be legal to me.

 

What is the *intent* with offset grinding a crankshaft?

Hmmm...from the rules page: "Stock cranks only. NO strokers!"

But here's this from the "Certified Stock" page: "No NHRA engine building tricks allowed."

Seems to me that offset grinding or welding or whatever on a crankshaft to gain stroke kind of "implies" it's a stroker...never seen or heard about a Mason-Dixon line for "X amount of stroke added = stroker"? And the ".015 stroke tolerance" comes straight outta the NHRA book...so does that put it in the "NHRA engine building trick" column...??

 

.015 is the spec if it is under that it is legal.

It isn't a NHRA trick.It is a tolerance.If the PSMCDR is using the NHRA blueprint specs it is clearly legal.


"No NHRA engine building tricks allowed." To me this shouldn't be in the rules it means nothing.Define NHRA trick to me.

 

The NHRA specs show the stock bore/stroke (as well as the other stock specs) but say *nothing* about the added .015"...as the commercials used to say, you gotta "read the book" for that. So, are folks gonna have to join the NHRA, just to get the rule book, so they'll know the rules for Pure Stock?

 

I agree, Jim Spetsman is the perfect canidate to oversee the certifying process. After all, he has passed the certification process more times than anyone else (like 4 X more that anyone else if I recall). Not to mention the fact that he still holds the record for the fastest ET ran by any certified car at the actual event where the certification process was completed and passed.:Smarty:

 

"So, are folks gonna have to join the NHRA, just to get the rule book, so they'll know the rules for Pure Stock?"

That would suggest that the people that are playing by the rules now don't know what the rules are.If they are gonna play by the rules I would recommend they get a rule book and actually read it.

I'll have to dig around here at the shop for a rule book but "I thought" it was worded +or-.015

I could be wrong but let me see

 

The exact wording is "Stroke tolerance is +/- .015-inch"

As another point of intrest you can move the pin up or down in the rod .025 too:Brow:

 

To me all this debating what the rules that are written in black and white is crap.The real issue is ALL RACERS NEED TO BE HELD TO THE SAME STANDARD

 

.015 stroke is absolutely legal per nhra spec.I checked with Dan when i did my 69 motor 3 years ago.I elected not to do this on my 70.I think the 68 Bird will pass tech without issue.It is the absolute perfect combo,and Scott has proven for decades,he knows what he is doing. Dan and Bob work thier tails off at these races,and hopefully make most people happy. I for one am.ANYBODY asked should be able to P&g,pull a valve cover,or a spark plug without problem.Bottom line is it needs to be fun,not work.

 

Last time I checked, the name on the t-shirts & hats I brought back from Stanton said "PSMCDR" on them, *not* NHRA...I was one of the original *6* owners to certify back in '01, and I remember the original intent of using *only* the published NHRA engine blueprint specs as being nothing more than a published list of several combos, that were easily accessible, but was *not* to be seen as the Gospel, because of the discrepencies from factory specs (ie, some camshaft specs are larger than factory offerings). But your offset pin is another perfect example...if this is what folks think this is about, that's okie dokie by me, but lemme know, as my next phone call will be to Bobby DeArmond as us Hillbillys are gonna do this *right*...(a Google search will get you folks up to speed on Bobby!). I am in agreement that we all need to be held to the same standards, whatever they may be...

Oh, and it seems *to me* like someone "threw good money after bad" if the cost & trouble to offset grind a crank was simply to gain 2.26hp...but we all know better than that!

Read what Google says about offset grinding

 

I completly understand what you are saying,BUT after the first guy did it "right" and he got away with it it(that is if that wasn't what this class is about)it is only right, just as you say,that the gloves come off for everyone.

How can one guy have one valve job and another guy be told he can't that valve job?